The Problem of Ancient Primary Sources

Having finished one philosophical discussion, Grim recently asked for suggestions for the next project. I suggested maybe a discussion of how to read these texts. How can someone today read and understand Plato, or Aristotle, or other ancient philosophical works?

Many years ago I took some courses in reading classical Chinese. The textbook gave us selections from primary sources like Confucius, Mencius, and Tang Dynasty poets, and also provided extensive glossaries, and we were expected to translate a selection before each class. In class, we would each read our translations, and then we would discuss where we had problems, or where noticeable differences between our translations had appeared.

At one point, I started feeling like I was getting it. Not like I was an expert, but the texts started making sense more naturally. I did what I thought was a good translation of a particular text and felt kinda proud of it, for a beginner.

When I read my translation to the class, the professor paused for a moment. "That's a very plausible translation," he said. "But I'm afraid it's wrong." And he proceeded to give the correct translation.

I understood where I had erred, but not why. Surely there must be some marker in the text that would have indicated the change he gave me, a marker I wasn't aware of. So I asked him, how could I know which way to translate this?

"Well," he replied, with a touch of reluctance, "you have to know the story before you begin."

So then much more recently we were discussing akratēs at the Hall, "the puzzle of someone who knows what is right but does the wrong thing anyway." In the comments, I was trying to work through a definition of virtue, and Grim made a suggestion. "You probably need to read Plato's Parmenides. Socrates was very young when that conversation is supposed to have happened; and it raises all these questions beyond the practical to the metaphysical."

The phrase "beyond the practical to the metaphysical" should have been put in flashing red lettering. In any case, I thought I was going to read more about virtue, but instead ... well, here. I'll put a selection from the beginning of it below the fold, with some discussion of difficulties I had reading it.

I could think of lots of worse things to be doing than to be making armor in Poland.

LUBLIN, Poland (Reuters) – Just like his Medieval counterparts 600 years ago armourer Tomasz Samula has hardly any time to outfit his knights before battle commences.

Samula is racing to add the final touches to the metal breastplates, helmets, gloves and other accoutrements needed by the Lublin knights before they take part in re-enacting Grunwald, one of the largest battles of the Medieval age.

I imagine Lars and Grim will appreciate this item.

The round table. Or hall. Or something like that.

Researchers exploring the legend of Britain’s most famous Knight believe his stronghold of Camelot was built on the site of a recently discovered Roman amphitheatre in Chester.

Hooray!

Good news.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7883874/Historians-locate-King-Arthurs-Round-Table.html

Robin Hood, History Channel

I'm watching a wonderful History Channel show on Robin Hood. Ridley Scott, Russell Crow, and various historians are all in it. I particularly like the actual timeline they keep showing of when the name "Robin Hood" first began to appear in written documents. They say he was mentioned in oral history for about 100-200 years before his name was recorded in documents. He also had a big presense in various ballads, all way before his name ever was written anywhere.  Somewhere around 1460 a guy who has come to be known as Robin Hood existed.

Of course, I can still recite the entire song from the Disney version and I recall having a massive crush on the fox (read: cartoon) version of Robin Hood. Never was into Errol Flynn. I will enjoy seeing Russell Crow be him.

Robin Hood and Little John running through the forest, laughing back and forth at what the other one has to say; reminising this and that, and having such a good time; ooodalolly ooodalolly, golly what a day!

Don't worry, gang, Grim comes back soon and will be restoring the usual program.

This amuses me no end:



Yup, along with British and French troops, that's a company of US Infantry, marching in Red Square. Part of the 65th anniversary celebrations of the victory over Nazi Germany. The US, British and French troops were invited by the Russian Government to participate this year, for the first time ever.

But other Russians aren't so happy:

Author Alexander Prokhanov, editor in chief of the nationalist Zavtra daily, called the appearance of U.S. servicemen in Red Square a national humiliation.

"The fact that American troops are trampling underfoot the cobblestones of Red Square is a huge shame and humiliation for Russia," Prokhanov said. "Thus they are celebrating their final victory not in World War II but in the Cold War."

Heh.

(via perfunction)

Medieval ladies quiz

Happy Mother's Day. Don't forget the ladies.

"The Inquisition"

How serendipitous is question #10?

Discussion Plutarch.

Ok, I hope everybody has had a chance to read the lives mentioned here.

So, what do you all think? Was Plutarch's comparison apt?

Discuss. Support your arguement.

UPDATE: Bumped to the top by Grim because of the importance of the discussion; newer posts below.

Plutarch's Lives

I've had to go back and read a bit of this, and so I'll beg indulgence on the tardiness of it.

Most often these days any published Plutarch seems to be merely chunks of his original work--for instance, my first experience was a Penguin classic called "Fall of the Roman Republic" which had all the relevant Roman lives for the 1st century BC. But none of the Greek lives, much less the comparisons. This is sad, as it obscures Plutarch's purpose a great deal. However, I was able to find a print copy of the complete lives that Barnes & Noble has recently issued as part of it's "Library of Essential Reading".

Now, I am traditional in that I prefer my books in hand, rather than online, but in the spirit of the times, the internet has become the world's library. So I have found online a complete transcription of the Lives here. (Send Mr. Thayer a thank you note--He seems to have retyped rather than scanned the text--quite an undertaking.)

Obviously the next thing to do was to pick which lives to read (and feel free to read them all). I had at least one life in mind and but then considered several others, but finally went back with my first thought.

So, we will read the pair of Alcibiades (Greek, 5th century BC) and Coriolanus (Roman 5th century BC). Make sure you read the comparison as well.

And if agreeable, we'll commence with some sort of discussion next Monday. And if people really like it, well read some more.

Moonrise.

So, to day is June 6th.

65 years ago today, a whole lot of American, British, Canadian, and French soldiers stormed Fortress Europe.

General Eisenhower called it a 'great crusade'. It probably was.

He'd probably get into big trouble using those words these days, though.

Scratch four flattops!

So, today is June 4. I have read that the Japanese intended to rename Midway "The Glorious Month of June" after they captured it.

Things don't always work out the way they were planned, which is a lesson that apparently has to be learnt over and over again.

The US Navy won that battle, but it was not a sure thing. Battles never are.

If people out there want to 'read more about it' (assuming they have not already) I will heartily recommend Jonathan Parshall's and Anthony Tully's "Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway" which is an absolutely amazing piece of historical writing, dissecting the battle from mostly the Japanese perspective. You will not think about the battle same way again after reading this book, I will guarantee that.

But today, let us remember Admiral Fletcher and the brave crews of the USS Yorktown, USS Enterprise and USS Hornet and all the rest. For as long as there is a US Navy, we will remember their deeds this day.

For Grim:

Storm that fort!

Looks like the Russians remember too.

North Korea Tests Second Nuclear Device, Fires Short-Range Missiles

Korea made its second test of a nuclear explosive on Monday and declared it was more destructive than the first, an advance that is likely to embolden Kim Jong Il's regime in rebuffing calls by the U.S. and others to halt its weapons program.

The country also launched three short-range missiles, including one from the same site from which it fired a long-range missile over Japan and into the Pacific Ocean seven weeks ago.

It never quite starts where you expect it to.

Right now, it seems Iran is the focus of the Obama administration's nuclear worries.

East wind, rain.

TOKYO (Reuters) - A Japanese ruling party panel is to propose that pre-emptive strikes against enemy bases be allowed despite the country's pacifist constitution, Kyodo news agency said on Monday, weeks after a North Korean missile launch.

In 1941, the Roosevelt administration expected, that if war broke out, the Japanese would attack the Philipines first.

People don't always do what you expect them to.

Oh, and happy Memorial Day to all.

Blow it out your ass.

Heh. Somebody's got a sense of humor.

"What is to be done?"

Learning to hunt.

Everything old is new again.

Hunting used to be one of those skills that was always wanted for soldiers. The Roman author Vegetius explicitly mentions the desirablity of enlisting huntsmen in his De Rei Militari 1700 years ago. The Greek author (and soldier) Xenophon, wrote On hunting some 800 years before Vegetius, in which he says:

Therefore I charge the young not to despise hunting or any other schooling. For these are the means by which men become good in war and in all things out of which must come excellence in thought and word and deed.

Smart guys, those Ancients.

I said it sounded better in the original German:


I'm not the only one to notice either.

Happy Birthday, USA.

Bob Krumm has a report of 1,215 soldiers reenlisting this day in Iraq.

This country is lucky to have such citizens. They make it possible that, as Washington wrote to Moses Seixas, "...everyone shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid."

Enjoy the day, yourselves, your family and your country. Have a fig. And remember.

Congratulations, General Dunwoody.

Only in America. What a country.

The picture made me laugh.

I think this is the first time I've seen this anywhrere else: Roger Simon over at Pajamas Media makes the case that had Al Gore won the 2000 election, the USA would be in largley the same place today.

Oh, and check out the comments. Michael Totten thinks so too!