Conan killed one of the chickens, for no apparent reason. Any of my grandparents, kind and gentle people though they were, would have shot him for that. Of course, they came up in the Great Depression when chicken-killing dogs were a life or death matter potentially. I didn't shoot him or hurt him at all, but it raises a dilemma about what ought to be done -- or how to teach him not to do it without harming him.
My wife suggested the old folk trick of tying the dead bird around his neck and leaving it there until it rots, but that also seemed pretty horrible to me.
What do you think should be done? Ultimately I would miss having the fresh eggs if he killed all the chickens, but it wouldn't hurt my family's prosperity much. On the other hand, I do think there's an issue about having a dog who kills for pleasure. Back on the first hand, though, my last dog killed cats whenever he could, and he was a great dog. I'm a little mystified about how to approach this problem, and would like your advice.
14 comments:
It's likely, though not certain, that he's not killing for pleasure but because he thinks he ought. He's a hunting dog breed, isn't he (I've forgotten how you came to have him)? It's even possible he just sees the chickens as toys, and he plays violently with them; when he kills one, he doesn't see it as dead, just as no longer a toy. Or does he eat (part of) his kill?
Killing for pleasure or for obligation or by accident, the trick is to teach him that the chickens are off-limits. If they're fenced, teach him to stay away from the fence. If they're free-roaming, teach him to stay away from the chickens.
Either one is easier said than done, and it'll take patience. He respects you and wants your approval. Withhold that when he approaches a chicken, apply it when he walks away. You can express your approval in the usual way.
You can express your disapproval with the classic rolled up newspaper, or if he's too big for that, with something else--but not with anything that will do more than sting. You're disapproving, not looking to inflict harm.
Patience: I used to train my cats with a water gun, shooting them when they did something bad or started to do something bad. They generally learned pretty quickly. One cat, though, didn't mind the water much, and I had to shoot him lots of times per misdeed--really soak him. He did eventually learn.
On the other hand, he wasn't afraid of our vacuum cleaner, and he loved my rock 'n roll, so it was all good.
Eric Hines
Obviously my real concern isn't that he killed a chicken, but that he might kill my cat -- or attack a person. It's a serious concern. He's getting to be a big dog. He's never shown any sign of aggression towards a person, but I'm responsible for him and now I don't know if I can trust him. And he's very focused on the cat every time he sees him, although I've never seen him try to hurt the cat.
Training him regarding the chickens will potentiate your control over him vis-a-vis cats and humans and any other items (his perception) he might decide to work on.
Eric Hines
Key to his training, of course, is teaching him specific terms associated with the swats and other specific terms associated with the praise. Along with a couple of other control terms to the effect of Sit, and Stay.
Tones of voice matter, too. Dogs can maintain quite a vocabulary of both verbal and nonverbal "terms."
Eric Hines
I have no advice to offer. A second cousin of mine, after time in the army, worked as a dog trainer for a police department. He might have some suggestions.
I don't know anything about training dogs- depending on the neighbor situation , if he runs free and goes after stock he will likely get shot sooner or later.
Our neighbors are good people and love dogs, but they’ve been talking about getting some chickens too. Hopefully he can be trained.
I’ve trained dogs before, and indeed intend to train this one to be a live search & rescue dog. I’m not happy about the sudden violence.
But you’re right about how people feel about it in these mountains. I was telling the old fellow who runs the county dump about it, and the first thing he said was, “Kill the dog.”
I've had a couple of dogs but don't consider myself much good at training them. Eric H's counsel seems reasonable, however.
I know you have considerably more experience with animal training (horses and dogs) than I do but I still want to note that animals aren't automatons even after training. I don't know that anyone can ever feel better than "it's highly unlikely" he'd kill but it's impossible to say it would never happen. I'm sure you are capable of training him so that aggression and killing are not habitual or likely but I think there's always going to be an element of uncertainty to live with. It could be this incident is simply a reminder of that.
The old rural practice was also probably a matter of resource allocation. With a finite amount of time and energy to complete other tasks necessary for survival, expending effort to train a dog with the risk that it would continue to kill, even if it eventually stopped, was unaffordable.
I don't personally know. My neighbor had the same thing happen. He was told to put the dog and dead chicken in a barrel and roll them down a hill. If I recall, he did so. I haven't asked recently but last I knew he still has the dog and chickens.
Stc Michael
A veerrryyyy general review of the two major schools of dog training today:
Positive - give the dog something more interesting and rewarding when near the chicken (ie get him used to getting a reward when you use the clicker, then get him near chickens and reward him when he pays attention to you, not the chicken).
Negative - make association with chickens painful (using a shock collar is the prime example of this).
My first live-find search dog killed an animal and, even with use of a shock collar to correct his behavior, was always a bit distracted by them. That first kill really seems to cement something in their brain.
There are some good videos from the Michael Ellis dog school about the canine hunt-kill sequence and how behaviors get locked in.
My neighbors got a big mastiff- the dog must weigh more than the lady, she might be 110 lbs soaking wet- the creature was dragging her around like a toy. He was being a bit concerning to us, and the other neighbors with horses. Eventually they got a shock collar and that seemed to be effective in training him to mind commands. Now how it would work on a dog out of sight range who knows.
The suggestions here seem on point. Don't worry that shock collars are "painful", I can attest they are not, just *very weird* feeling as they make your muscles involuntarily contract in the local area applied. I wouldn't use them on my dogs if I'd not tested it myself. I think the vibrate setting would probably be enough of an attention getter anyway. I still have to do the training though.
I can speak to GS dogs. We had a wonderful GS when I was a kid, loyal to the end, protective, noble, obedient- but a stone cold killer. A skunk got in the yard when she was young, and squirted her square in the face. She destroyed (quite literally) that skunk, and spread it about the yard. She killed about five more in her life and never got a drop on her. She also killed a couple possums, and countless pocket gophers over the years. They are strongly territorial, and protective, and so you need to, in some way, convince him the chickens are part of the pack. If you can do that, you'll never need worry again, so long as they aren't stupid enough to pick a fight with him. Loyalty is their #1 value.
I'd also suspect that if he's busy training with you in various ways, he'd have less energy for chickens, so the SAR dog training could be really good for this.
Best of luck.
Have a litter of Puppies:
Put all the Puppies in a closed room with a very young Chicken running around, save the puppies that don't run after the chicken
next the puppies that do.
Rinse repeat.
After a few generations, the trait will be set in the breed.
I once read of someone putting chicks in hard clear plastic balls, then leaving the dog with them.
Once the dog realized it couldn't bite the chicks, it lost all interest, even after the balls were put away.
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