Slate Magazine: Any Way You Slice It, Rubio is Wrong About Welders
Apparently a lot of people emailed them, especially philosophers. They've looked at the data a lot more deeply now, and concluded that no matter how you look at it, the data don't support Rubio.
15 comments:
raven
said...
Exactly how many of those "philosophers" were earning a living in the private sector as opposed to being supported with public money?
Not sure. Some -- and probably the best paid ones, as private colleges like Harvard often have a lot more money than small state schools (many of which don't even have a philosophy program). But at UGA, our flagship state school, the best-paid philosophers make ~$90K a year. The newer ones don't make nearly that much. One problem with the data is that it's historical, and the historical pay may not be sustainable given the move to adjuncts and to having graduate students teach the courses (they clear only about $10K after fees and taxes, which means that they're scrambling to survive -- and yet they teach many courses that once would have been taught by a tenured professional).
...private colleges like Harvard often have a lot more money than small state schools (many of which don't even have a philosophy program). But at UGA, our flagship state school, the best-paid philosophers make ~$90K a year.
Well, there's making money, and there's making money. Some guys do it by making things, and some guys do it by poisoning minds, if only through condoning through their silence constant attacks on free speech and opposing ideas.
Due to the Federal Money Flow pretty much any university has a vastly inflated pay scale. The market for "philosophers" has been hugely distorted. Wonder how they would philosophize about kids being sold a vastly over rated degree in subjects which actually may have a negative job value, financed by crushing debt that is unable to be resolved in bankruptcy, all to enhance them there fi-los-o-fers wallets?
PS- I am referring to degrees which would immediately be a red flag for any sane employer.
Regardless of the relative merits of those two professions, we certainly do need MORE welders per capita than philosophers.
Maybe, but that's a contingent fact -- and just the sort of contingent fact that markets are supposed to be good at handling. We shouldn't need yet another government program: if we need more of them, wages should rise until it attracts enough people to get the training and do the work.
That's what really irritates me about Rubio's position. It's not that he's anti-philosophy. It's not that he's wrong on the facts about who earns higher wages. It's that he doesn't understand the consequences of his own stated ideas. If he did he would realize that he, as a politician, shouldn't even worry about what profession earns higher wages. Nor should he be trying to steer the nation's youth into the right job. That's the work of the market.
He's saying people should choose their life's work based on wages it will likely draw. Thus the market should determine what's important, and the mechanism it will use to determine what is important is the price that the given things can command.
So how do we get there? By trusting the market to punish bad decisions by budding philosophers, while rewarding and encouraging welders?
No, he has a new government program. And, just as an amusing side effect, he's about to steer America's youth in exactly the wrong direction, based on his belief in what the price structure should be instead of just trusting the market to set the price structure.
It's only the Left and the uneducated who don't see it. In the former case, it's not that they can't, it's that they don't want to; they're terrified of it. The Invisible Hand is inherently outside the Left's control, and they can't stand that. It's moving; it's gotta be regulated.
Some pathologies inflict on their victims a need to constantly experience pain in order for those victims to believe they're alive. The Left's pathology is the need to regulate in order to know they're alive.
Most people have never been involved in simulated markets. Thus the global market is too large for most people's brain to encompass.
However, seeing the market work with a closed system of 100-3000 people, makes things easier to grasp, on principle. Participating in such a closed economy, is also useful for testing certain economic principles, without relying on talking heads or "credentialed authorities".
I call BS on this too. "The mean annual salary of postsecondary philosophy and religion teachers—the best proxy for “philosophers” available in Bureau of Labor Statistics data—was $71,350 as of May 2014. For welders, cutters, solderers, and brazers—again, the best proxy for “welders” that the BLS has to offer—the mean annual wage from that same period was $40,040. "
So, first, they admitted the parameters above which were initially used were flawed. Okay, I agree.
So then they show charts comparing philosophy degree earners with All HS diploma earners and Associate Degrees. What does that have to do with Welding? I notice the first chart with Philosophy Undergrad majors tops out about $60k, and the Postsecondary Degrees tops out around $68k, give or take.
The only numbers they give for welders is still the job description that is really essentially the first couple of levels of the career, and still, they're making $40k, with no student loan debt, and four to seven years (or more) of a head start in earnings. The reason that category has such a low top end is because that's just not where you stay- you don't stay a junior welder all your career, you move up, either into a specialty welding job, or into a higher level equipment operator (robotic welding), or inspector, or supervisor, other category that pays better. It's not showing the top end, which we all know is over $100, maybe over $200 if you're an underwater welder working Oil Rigs and getting overtime.
I still say the category of "Philosopher" they are using is too broad, and the category of "welder" they are using is too narrow.
You know, another thought occurs to me- I don't think the university is necessarily the best place for the study of philosophy anymore- it's an ossifed institution that serves increasingly as a center for indoctrination, which is antithetical to the main thrust of philosophy- investigation and questioning. Better to hang out at the Hall.
Therefore, I'd even more strongly have to agree that we need more vocational training spots for welders than University spots for 'philosophers'.
You're very kind, but whatever capacity I have to make this philosophically interesting has been greatly improved by the university. Well, by very specific universities in Georgia, which are rather outside the streams of elite universities worldwide -- backwaters, you might say, which is only to use a metaphor in which the water hasn't been changed recently. It's the old water, at least some of it.
15 comments:
Exactly how many of those "philosophers" were earning a living in the private sector as opposed to being supported with public money?
Not sure. Some -- and probably the best paid ones, as private colleges like Harvard often have a lot more money than small state schools (many of which don't even have a philosophy program). But at UGA, our flagship state school, the best-paid philosophers make ~$90K a year. The newer ones don't make nearly that much. One problem with the data is that it's historical, and the historical pay may not be sustainable given the move to adjuncts and to having graduate students teach the courses (they clear only about $10K after fees and taxes, which means that they're scrambling to survive -- and yet they teach many courses that once would have been taught by a tenured professional).
...private colleges like Harvard often have a lot more money than small state schools (many of which don't even have a philosophy program). But at UGA, our flagship state school, the best-paid philosophers make ~$90K a year.
Well, there's making money, and there's making money. Some guys do it by making things, and some guys do it by poisoning minds, if only through condoning through their silence constant attacks on free speech and opposing ideas.
Eric Hines
Due to the Federal Money Flow pretty much any university has a vastly inflated pay scale. The market for "philosophers" has been hugely distorted.
Wonder how they would philosophize about kids being sold a vastly over rated degree in subjects which actually may have a negative job value, financed by crushing debt that is unable to be resolved in bankruptcy, all to enhance them there fi-los-o-fers wallets?
PS- I am referring to degrees which would immediately be a red flag for any sane employer.
Regardless of the relative merits of those two professions, we certainly do need MORE welders per capita than philosophers.
Regardless of the relative merits of those two professions, we certainly do need MORE welders per capita than philosophers.
Slate F***s up again. Lumping all the GEDs/HS together isn't what the argument was about.
And the BLS statistics don't take into account overtime, because that's not the 'regular wage'. I guarantee lots of welders are getting overtime pay.
It is true that working philosophers rarely get time and a half.
Regardless of the relative merits of those two professions, we certainly do need MORE welders per capita than philosophers.
Maybe, but that's a contingent fact -- and just the sort of contingent fact that markets are supposed to be good at handling. We shouldn't need yet another government program: if we need more of them, wages should rise until it attracts enough people to get the training and do the work.
That's what really irritates me about Rubio's position. It's not that he's anti-philosophy. It's not that he's wrong on the facts about who earns higher wages. It's that he doesn't understand the consequences of his own stated ideas. If he did he would realize that he, as a politician, shouldn't even worry about what profession earns higher wages. Nor should he be trying to steer the nation's youth into the right job. That's the work of the market.
He's saying people should choose their life's work based on wages it will likely draw. Thus the market should determine what's important, and the mechanism it will use to determine what is important is the price that the given things can command.
So how do we get there? By trusting the market to punish bad decisions by budding philosophers, while rewarding and encouraging welders?
No, he has a new government program. And, just as an amusing side effect, he's about to steer America's youth in exactly the wrong direction, based on his belief in what the price structure should be instead of just trusting the market to set the price structure.
I agree that the market should decide. Why can't so many see this?
Why can't so many see this?
It's only the Left and the uneducated who don't see it. In the former case, it's not that they can't, it's that they don't want to; they're terrified of it. The Invisible Hand is inherently outside the Left's control, and they can't stand that. It's moving; it's gotta be regulated.
Some pathologies inflict on their victims a need to constantly experience pain in order for those victims to believe they're alive. The Left's pathology is the need to regulate in order to know they're alive.
Eric Hines
Most people have never been involved in simulated markets. Thus the global market is too large for most people's brain to encompass.
However, seeing the market work with a closed system of 100-3000 people, makes things easier to grasp, on principle. Participating in such a closed economy, is also useful for testing certain economic principles, without relying on talking heads or "credentialed authorities".
I call BS on this too.
"The mean annual salary of postsecondary philosophy and religion teachers—the best proxy for “philosophers” available in Bureau of Labor Statistics data—was $71,350 as of May 2014. For welders, cutters, solderers, and brazers—again, the best proxy for “welders” that the BLS has to offer—the mean annual wage from that same period was $40,040. "
So, first, they admitted the parameters above which were initially used were flawed. Okay, I agree.
So then they show charts comparing philosophy degree earners with All HS diploma earners and Associate Degrees. What does that have to do with Welding?
I notice the first chart with Philosophy Undergrad majors tops out about $60k, and the Postsecondary Degrees tops out around $68k, give or take.
The only numbers they give for welders is still the job description that is really essentially the first couple of levels of the career, and still, they're making $40k, with no student loan debt, and four to seven years (or more) of a head start in earnings. The reason that category has such a low top end is because that's just not where you stay- you don't stay a junior welder all your career, you move up, either into a specialty welding job, or into a higher level equipment operator (robotic welding), or inspector, or supervisor, other category that pays better. It's not showing the top end, which we all know is over $100, maybe over $200 if you're an underwater welder working Oil Rigs and getting overtime.
I still say the category of "Philosopher" they are using is too broad, and the category of "welder" they are using is too narrow.
You know, another thought occurs to me- I don't think the university is necessarily the best place for the study of philosophy anymore- it's an ossifed institution that serves increasingly as a center for indoctrination, which is antithetical to the main thrust of philosophy- investigation and questioning. Better to hang out at the Hall.
Therefore, I'd even more strongly have to agree that we need more vocational training spots for welders than University spots for 'philosophers'.
Better to hang out at the Hall.
You're very kind, but whatever capacity I have to make this philosophically interesting has been greatly improved by the university. Well, by very specific universities in Georgia, which are rather outside the streams of elite universities worldwide -- backwaters, you might say, which is only to use a metaphor in which the water hasn't been changed recently. It's the old water, at least some of it.
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