Grim and Joel:
You two always give me something to think about and this latest debate is no different. I know my only real participation has been sniping on points I feel are relevent, mostly correcting Germanic lore, but one man's trash is another man's treasure.
I don't feel that I disagree with either of you in a practical matter, namely that we have our Rights as US Citizens and these Rights are good things.
Although I agree with The Jacksonian Party that your Rights come last, after your Responsibilities as a Citizen.
It seems to me that your core argument is futile for me to engage in when you bring up ultimate origin of rights. If we shared a common belief in Godly beings or a singular God, then maybe it would be a constructive learning experience. But we don't, so right out of the gate different cultural paradigms prohibit common ground.
So I must fall back on what I know to be fact:
1) Moral rights are put into place by humans with bloodshed and strife, &
2) In order to see these rights flourish, in America, you must perform your obligations as a Citizen.
Everything else I see as speculative belief.
Finally: I did want to thank you both for your past (and hopefully future) words-- it has been a big help to me.