There was more than one cause of this depopulation and degeneration, but the greatest cause was removal of virile males from the breeding population so they could fight and die in distant lands. As the great classical historian (and eugenicist) Otto Seeck explained,“Only cowards remained, and from their brood came forward the new generation. Cowardice showed itself in lack of originality and in slavish following of masters and traditions.”***Imperialism is profoundly dysgenic because when you “send forth the best ye breed,” you can no longer breed the best. The American sage Benjamin Franklin saw the dysgenic effect of mass conscription and believed it must invariably undermine a militaristic people with depopulation, degeneration and collapse. While he was ambassador to France, Franklin observed:“A standing army not only diminishes the population of a country, but even the size and breed of the human species. For an army is the flower of the nation. All the most vigorous, stout, and well-made men in a kingdom are to be found in the army, and these men in general cannot marry.”†
This differs of course from our own standing army, in which one of the first things young soldiers tend to do is marry in order to get out of the barracks. Still, they do have a point to make about our own society as well as ancient Rome: the fact that we are putting off marriage and childbirth for the most intelligent and successful of our young men and women may well be having a negative effect on the quality of the population overall.
Eugenics in terms of selective breeding is discredited in politics, but widely practiced in animal husbandry. Setting aside silly notions like race, different people like different animals are differently able and intelligent, and we know that these qualities are heritable to a degree. If the less able and intelligent are breeding early and often, and the moreso later and less, over time it will tend to result in a population that is weakened.
It's a challenging idea, one that I advance for discussion with caution given the evils plainly associated with human eugenics. Regular readers of the Hall are a good group, though, and can be trusted to handle such ideas with due care.
14 comments:
It also used to be proposed that too many legionaires were given too much land as retirement sinecures, and Rome ran out of land to give, or citizens to serve, or...something.
It also used to be said that Rome fell because they used lead in their piping and to sweeten their wine--and since only the elite could afford the wine and the plumbing, successive generations of the upper classes poisoned themselves and lost intellectual capacity from lead accumulation in their bodies, and the unwashed masses were incapable of rising to fill the gap.
Whatever the particular mechanism for a particular civilization--maybe they just run out of new ideas and it takes an exogenous shakeup to restart creativity--it may be just a general "rule" that civilizations age, grow old, and die.
Eric Hines
The lower classes often take their cues from the upper classes (though they lack the funds to mitigate the side effects of the rich vices). So if the upper classes turn effete, the lower may well mimic them.
I'm not sure whether the "anti-eugenics" involved is biological or cultural. I'd think the biological changes you'd get from killing/crippling your best would take several generations to manifest, but cultural changes can be quick.
I don't see any evidence that civilizations die of old age, although the idea goes back at least to Montesquieu. They wax and wane, but they only seem to die if something wipes them out.
For example, China should certainly be dead if the lifecycle model were correct. They have waxed, waned, waxed again, waned again, been conquered, then absorbed their conquerors, etc., and it doesn't seem as if the nation is going to suddenly up and die anytime soon.
I dunno. Are there examples of civilizations simply dying without some external factor like invasion or disease killing them off?
To take up the main topic, is it true that the best of a nation are found in its army? True, sickly and disabled men couldn't serve, but then, were they likely to find good mates and reproduce? It may be that imperialism simply leaves more women with no mates than would otherwise be the case, I guess.
It's also not clear to me that "barbarian" breeds are necessarily worse than "civilized" breeds. Maybe, when they move into an empire, they are less loyal to the emperor, but I never thought emperors were worthy of national loyalty in the first place.
But, ad fontes!
The sources, Seely from 1870 and Seeck from 1907, both come from that era where race was the primary object of eugenics, and this article's argument includes race even though they are different races than the ones we think of today. Note the title of Seeck's work:
"The Human Harvest: A Study of the Decay of Races through the Survival of the Unfit (Boston: Beacon Press, 1907)"
So, these races are different than the one's we normally talk about, but they are races just the same. For example:
"Seeley is speaking of the centuries after Marcus Aurelius (died A.D. 180) when the Roman breed went barren and the Empire that bore its name filled with foreigners who were Roman in name only. At the bottom of the Empire’s collapse was the simple biological fact that, among genuine Romans bred on the flanks of the Apennines, “the human harvest was bad.”"
Note well: "the Roman breed", "foreigners who were Roman in name only," "genuine Romans." This is the language of race in the 19th century, of breed and lineage and ancestry.
Also at the end:
"The Empire had before been a specific substance with a distinct form, but the substance or stuff is no longer distinguishable from that of barbarism."
The "substance" is likewise biological inheritance, isn't it?
This isn't race as it is commonly thought of today, but it is breeding, and it is race as it was conceived of by many intellectuals in the long 19th century.
This could be re-written as cultural. The cultural Romans may have been weaker as a culture for so many of their men being away, and the immigrants didn't have the same culture or values or loyalties.
Maybe relevant:
https://www.science.org/content/article/tamer-cow-smaller-brain
My reading about the fall of Rome was that at the end of the Roman empire, (and, tragically, for two or three centuries beforehand) there was less and less reason to put up with the Romans, even as a Roman.
In the early Republic, the life of the average Roman was respected and protected by Rome. They commanded the loyalty of their people because they allowed their people to live prosperously.
(Though it may have been more or less at swordpoint a few times. The class war between the patricians which supplied the generals and calvary, and the people, whom the state existentially depended on for the infantry, was there almost from the beginning. At one point, the Roman army camped out outside the walls of Rome and left the city open to attack to force the senate to recognize their rights.)
In the very late empire, after centuries of betrayal of those loyal to the empire, civil war, patrician grandiose corruption, denial of rights, and the greedy concentration of all wealth into the holders of the slave-run latifundia, there was no reason left to be loyal. Late Rome was a nightmare where the supposedly free men lived (conspiciously) worse lives than the patricians slaves, and depended on patronage for survival. Rome, arrogantly, didn't need Romans anymore, and the late Romans eventually decided they didn't need Rome.
I remember reading many quotes from the late empire to the effect that the barbarian Goths made kinder and saner masters than the arrogant, callous, and sometimes monstrous governors radiating out from the capitol.
toastedposts
If there is an aging process to a civilization, in my opinion, it's the concentration of wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands. When a few greedy bastards have finally reduced everyone else from independent land/property/business-holders to immiserated and dependent serfs, loyalty evaporates (along with hope, and probably the birthrate too: thinking people don't breed in captivity.)
toastedposts
As to eugenics (as some kind of deliberate policy), I don't always agree with C.S. Lewis, but there was an essay of his a while back where he made a point very similar to the one I like to make about it.
The problem with eugenics is not that it wouldn't work. The problem with eugenics is that it creates an immediate division among people into the people doing the selection, and the people being selected. And the people being "shaped" have no reason to put up with it, and existential reasons to rebel.
The objectivist types would say that "men are ends in and of themselves, not means to someone else's end." Everyone has their own innate purpose in life, and for most people that includes, centrally, raising children, setting them up for success, sending something of yourself into the future. If your nation suddenly wants to kill and/or prevent your children, to deny your deepest purpose in life, then it is suddenly your mortal enemy! (And arguably, in the modern west, it is becoming so, even if they are currently pretending to be horrified by Nazis.)
The shapers will never have any incentive to shape the shapees in the shapees *own* best interests! They will always do it to make them better tools. The "human harvesters" evaluate other men by their aesthetic and utilitarian preferences, but the "harvestees" are having someone else pass judgement on the "fitness" of their lives - judgement that they have no reason to accept or sit still for!
(Also the war over education: To brain-rape your children with ideological poison, instead of preparing them with knowledge that they would need to thrive. One turns them into tools and expendable footsoldiers for worthless political and pseudo-religious causes, for the wealth and power of distant puppetmasters. It's parasitic. Thinking parents want their kids to find success in life, and want them to have real knowledge and real skills. (Assuming they live in a place sane/free enough that *any* skills can lead to success.) That's been a war long smoldering in the west.)
Who you marry, and who you have kids with, is one of the most important and deeply personal decisions of your life. People are going to do it for their *own* reasons.
toastedposts
Have we forgotten we are made in the image of God?
That all All lives are sacred, from womb to tomb.
Reading this post reminded me of dad29's post from 2011 on Russell Kirk and the Bishop
Culture arises from the cult; and that when belief in the cult has been wretchedly enfeebled, the culture will decay swiftly. The material order rests upon the spiritual order.
Kill Christianity and replace it with What?
.....How are we to account for this widespread decay of the religious impulse? It appears that the principal cause of the loss of the idea of the holy is the attitude called "scientism"-that is, the popular notion that the revelations of natural science, over the past century and a half or two centuries, somehow have proved that men and women are naked apes merely, that the ends of existence are production and consumption merely; that happiness is the gratification of sensual impulses; and that concepts of the resurrection of the flesh and the life everlasting are mere exploded superstitions. Upon these scientistic assumptions, public schooling in America is founded nowadays, implicitly......
Go read it, it was good in 2011, its even better now.
Russell Kirk and the Bishop
https://dad29.blogspot.com/2011/04/russell-kirk-and-bishop.html
Greg
toastedposts, that view of Roman decline makes a lot of sense. Could you recommend a source or two where I could read more about that?
I’ve listened to this speech on eugenics by Seth Gruber three times now and it’s excellent. It is an hour and 20 minutes long And it’s worth the time to listen to
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5q3ojakFRLE&feature=youtu.be
Greg
Would you like to summarize the argument, since you've devoted significant time to it?
Post a Comment