This interesting surname is of Anglo-Saxon origin, and is lcoational from a place so called in Kent, which was originally the name of a river. The first element seems to be derived from the Old English pre 7th Century "rum", spacious, but its formation and meaning are obscure. The second element is derived from the Old English "ea", river. The placename was first recorded as "Rumenea" in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles of Essex in 1052. A derivative of Romney is found recorded as "Ruminingseta" in the Saxon Charters of 697, and means "the fold of the Romney people".... The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of Robert de Romenel, which was dated 1086, The Domesday Book of Kent, during the reign of King William 1, "The Conqueror", 1066 - 1087.The spelling "Robert de Romenel" is clearly French on two points: "Robert" is an Old French name that existed among the Normans, but not among the Saxons; and "de -" is a French form as well. "Romney" also looks like a word of French descent.
But the authors of the book thought and wrote in French, and there were variations of "Robert" that was native to Anglo-Saxon England: Hrēodbēorð and some others. If the name was Normanized at the time of the Conquest, it could have survived in a form that doesn't look Saxon, but honestly happens to be. So possibly, for whatever it's worth, he's as Saxon as King Alfred.
Of course, for those Americans who aren't antiquarians, the real question is: "Was this remark just coded racism, or was it double-super coded racism?"
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I suppose it is no more or less racist than the Obama campaign's assertion in 2008 that he would be better able to handle international relations due to his heritage. But I guess we memory-holed that since.
No, I think people remember that. It's just not racist when he does it. It's only racist when, you know, "Anglo-Saxons" do it.
Apparently I spoke too soon. On reflection, our friends on the left have decided that it's not even coded, but rather open racism; or even open white surpremacism.
{insert Gomer Pyle impersonation here}
I don't know how long Romney's family has been Mormon, but there were a bunch of British converts in the 19th century.
And really, you'd have to see how Robert de Romenel is actually written down, since that might have a effect on how you say the name; is it "Charlemagne" or "Karl der Grosse" or "Charles the great"? (that last I've never actually seen in print, one or other of the first two seemingly beeing preferred.) Robert is actually Frankish, and can be found east and west of the Rhine, but due to the Normans, Robert is a lot more common that Rupert.
According to this more authoritative work, the original spelling was 'Robertus de Romenel.' That's not surprising, since the Domesday book is in Latin; but it's also not very helpful in determining whether the name was Saxon or Old French originally!
In any case, it appears from what I've been able to find today that the word "Romney" even as a place name appears after the Conquest; the Saxon place name wasn't given in that form. But that's not helpful in determining whether the claim is right or not.
"Family lore" and all that, I guess.
Mildly off topic, but I know someone from the town in Mexico where the Romneys settled. She says they are very good people, well thought of by the community.
LittleRed1
Now, the question of whether Romney's family is of British extraction is easier. His great-great grandfather was born in what was then Lancashire. Apparently they've been Mormons since the first generation of the church.
Grim'
His great-great grandfather was born in what was then Lancashire. Apparently they've been Mormons since the first generation of the church.
It would appear that the British Romneys were of Dissenter/Nonconformist stock, which points towards Yeoman-Anglo Saxon, not Norman-Aristocrat=Anglican. Not too many Aristocrats[Norman origin] were Dissenters/Nonconformists.
Well, that may have become true, but whoever Robertus was, he held five estates of the Archbishop. If the family name does track to him, then, it tracks to a well-propertied landholder.
Acccording to The Romney/Rumney History, there are two schools of thought regarding the origins of the name. As has been previously pointed out in this thread, one origin for Romney/Rumney is based in southeastern England in Romney, Kent.
Before the advent of the printing press and the first dictionaries, the English language was not standardized. Sound was what guided spelling in the largely illiterate middle Ages, so one person's name was often recorded under several variations during a single lifetime. Spelling variations were common, even among the names of the most literate people. Known variations of the Rumney family name include Rumney, Rumnie, Romney, Romny, Romenel, Romnay and many more.
First found in Kent where they were anciently seated as Lords of the Manor of Romney, anciently Romenel. At the time of the taking of the Doomsday Book, a survey of England initiated by Duke William of Normandy after his conquest of England, the village of Romney was held by a Norman noble, Robert de Romenel, and as was the Norman custom, the second son of the family adopted the name of the village.
This Norman, aristocratic origin pretty much repeats what Grim has pointed out.
Another possible origin for the Romney/Rumney surname is that it is connected with gypsies- Romany- in the northern border regions of England.
Sir Herbert Marshall~ in his book "The Makers of British Art" [1902], supports the theory of A.W. RUMNEY of Millfield, Watermillock, Cumberland that the name is derived from "Romany" and that all Rumney's and Romney's are descended from the gypsies who flourished in the Cumberland/Westmoreland and Scottish border regions.
Note that George Romney's English- and Mormon- ancestor is from Lancashire- quite close to the aforementioned Cumberland/Westmoreland and Scottish border regions. Whereas Kent is in the far southeast, on the other end England. I go with Romany in the north. Declasse/Dissenters.
Coincidentally, I knew Rumneys from my hometown. They were not Mormons. One of my cousins had a best friend whose surname was Romney- and she was a Mormon AND a cousin of THE Romney political family we have heard so much about these last 50 years.
If you look up the etymology of the word "rum," you will find reference to Romany/Gypsy.
Well, it's also possible that both are right: the ones from Kent are aristocratic (and probably Norman). The gypsies/travelers/tinkers may have adopted the name, as they tend to lay on to whatever isn't tied down (so I've heard!).
Which, you know, if that's the branch the American Romneys are from... well, lets leave that.
Grim:
The gypsies/travelers/tinkers may have adopted the name, as they tend to lay on to whatever isn't tied down
Granted, you said this in humor, but Romani is what gypsies call themselves.
Another possibility- which you may have been suggesting- is that non-Gypsy ethnic English/Scots in the border region may have been labeled Romany/Romani for following either Gypsy occupations-such as tinker- or Gypsy behavior. The borderlands were rather anarchic places where civilized modes of behavior were often honored more in the breach than in the observance. It is possible that ethnic Scots or English in the border regions got labeled Romany for following stereotypes of Romany behavior such as robbing and deceiving.
Maybe so, but his family was in Britain late for that. The last big disruption on that frontier was 1745; my mothers' family, who were Duncans, were involved in that and shipped for America not long after coming out on the losing side. 1806 is sixty years later; that's about the time that Sir Walter Scott was writing the novel to which he gave 'Sixty Years Since' as the alternative title.
(Which is, by the way, a fine novel even if it takes some patience from the modern reader. "Even a haggis can roll downhill!")
Anyway, if the point is that the Romneys are tinkers... well, but that's a problem, isn't it? Everything we know about the family since they came to America suggests a certain stability and reliability. They don't much seem like tinkers, whether I like the man or not.
Maybe so, but his family was in Britain late for that.
Some English border ruffian got labeled "Romani" for acting like a Romani back in 1300 or 1400 or 1500 or 1600. It eventually became a surname [George the Romani?.. Matthew son of the Romani George], even though the ruffian-like behavior in his descendants stopped long ago.
Anyway, if the point is that the Romneys are tinkers... well, but that's a problem, isn't it? Everything we know about the family since they came to America suggests a certain stability and reliability. They don't much seem like tinkers..
While one may have the surname of Smith, all that means occupation-wise is that someone in the family tree- who knows when?- actually was a blacksmith.
Ditto with the surname Tinker. Tinker to Evers to Chance: I doubt Tinker's grandfather, let alone great-great-great-great grandfather was actually a tinker. Perhaps ten generations back there was a tinker.
My surname suggests an occupation which my direct ancestors didn't follow in the hundreds of years since my ancestors came to the US.
A surname is not a caste assignment.
In any event, Mitt and George and clan are more likely northern yeoman in origin than Kentish toffs. Toffs have no need to adopt strange religions nor to emigrate.
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