[W]e humans can't possibly understand God's ways. A worm understands more about your 401(k) investment strategy, than we understand about God's plan. To an unborn child, birth is a catastrophe, the end of everything he knows; but to us, we know that it's the start of something far greater, and the end of something that could not possibly go on any longer.I would be very, very cautious about seeing "the hand of God" in anything other than your own life (and even that, mostly in retrospect). God is never doing just one thing, and further is primarily concerned with the salvation of individual souls rather than anything else.
"It's really hopeless" is not a happy claim, but it could be true without being happy. But it may not be functional even if it is true, as Kant said of determinism: even if you decide to believe that you have no free will and everything is determined by physics, the choice to make that decision about what to believe seems to be a free choice. You can't really function as someone who believes in determinism; every day you experience choices that you seem to make and need to reason about (e.g. 'should I have donuts for lunch, or something healthier?' doesn't seem to be deterministic; even if Krispy Kreme just opened across the street and makes donuts right at your lunchtime, it seems like you can at least occasionally decide to eat something else). Students and teachers like Nicholas of Cusa have gone a long way down this path of showing that God's infinity makes him fundamentally unknowable; I myself doubt whether infinity is a proper metaphor, because it seems to be a feature of creation rather than the uncreated. Still, many of Nicholas' basic points hold even if you say that infinity isn't a large enough concept, so to speak.
Fortunately, you have another road you can choose, which is scripture. This seems to be the source of Janet's claim that God is principally interested in saving souls: it's not reasoned from nature, as we can't even prove the existence of souls from nature. Scripture provides a number of positive claims about God. For example, the prophecy of Ezekiel provides an extremely mysterious account of the chariot of God that Moses Maimonides wrote a book about interpreting. Such interpretations do tend to suggest that God takes sides for reasons of his own, as with Moses; we still may not always understand these reasons, as when he orders Joshua to engage in what seems like wholesale genocide. Sometimes people doubt at least some of the scriptures' authenticity, especially when it seems like an argument that God took one group's side over the other's; the scripture really does seem to say that, but it's out of order of deductions like those that begin the Declaration of Independence, i.e. that God loves everybody equally.
For Christians, scripture also includes an apparently easier path: Jesus as intermediary personhood, whom you can relate to directly as one human being to another (fully man and fully god, somehow). This point is raised by Tex; yet of course Jesus is not merely man, though fully man, and by nature exceptional and extraordinary, and thus a model that can't be expected to hold for the ordinary and normal.
Still, it's attractive because then the path is not necessarily much harder than developing a relationship with another person, except that you only get to meet the person through scripture or as you imagine interactions through prayer. However, then you have the same problem as the mystic, who approaches God and knowledge of god through meditation: how much of what you are 'finding out about God' really is your imagination rather than a genuine encounter with the divine? I'm reminded of a favorite quote from the movie Ladyhawke, wherein the thief says to the knight, "Sir I talk to God all the time, and the truth is he never mentioned you." Yet at least in the movie, the thief was just trying to avoid an arduous and scary duty that really did lead to what the author depicts as prophecy and divine justice.
You can try to test your imagination or meditations also against scripture, of course, to see that you're not getting too far astray. But we also have scriptural interactions with God the Father in the Old Testament, especially in the Book of Job. Job is actually full of a set of claims about God that I would say are characteristic of another major approach to theology, which is negative theology. Job, upset about all the misery inflicted upon him even though he has tried to live a just and faithful life, is confronted with evidence of things God is not: specifically, God does not share Job's limitations. Job can't hang the stars in the sky, or set the firmament on its foundations. We aren't really told anything about how God can do those things, so we don't really know much more about him: but we do know that there are ways in which God is different from us, and these are ways in which he lacks our limitations and instead possesses great powers.
Job contains at least one passage, though, that suggests yet another approach to God. I have written before on several occasions about its description of the horse:
Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder? Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible. He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men. He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword. The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield. He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that it is the sound of the trumpet. He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.This is an interesting passage, though: because horses are like that, but only if men make them so. By pure nature, a horse will avoid any danger, and is scared like a grasshopper -- or of a grasshopper. The Lord's point in speaking to Job, if Job were the kind of man who could understand it, was that this is indeed what men do with horses.
12 comments:
I disagree with Janet's take on scripture. Start at the Godhead's act of "let us make mankind in our image". Being made in the image of God, to call God "Father", and then to say that God is completely unknowable denies our origin. That doesn't contradict that it's incorrect to claim God is completely knowable in our present state.
As for God picking sides, why not? He made his laws. He gave man free will. Should he not pick sides for those that meets His purposes, or that fulfill his promises in the past? Old Testament often shows him favoring the Hebrews, but also the other Gentiles when the Hebrews needed correcting. To me, it looks like the genocide committed by the Hebrews is the fulfillment of the promise of God to Abraham concerning the land. The delay looks to have been long enough for sufficient descendants to be born to occupy the promised land, and for the current inhabitants to have made themselves vile enough to warrant ejecting them. Scripture has several such promises that are made but fulfilled for the descendant's children generations away. Another example would be the second coming of Christ.
As for knowing God and the mystics. There is a reality to some of them. The prophecy of the old testament is still ongoing, the book of Acts didn't close and the five fold ministry still exists. It's not hard to find people who have written down their dreams or prophecy and the event to have happened years later. However there are charlatans after money or power or whatever and they sow conflict and muddy the water. The real ones take more time to recognize.
It is generally correct in not go looking for the hand of God in everything, but generally correct is not always correct, and sometimes God gets blatant in His acts. If my belief is correct, we will see more God activity in the immediately coming years. As it is recognized, it should be admissible evidence that God is. If God is, then it is necessary for us to not ignore Him, His preferences, His laws, and yes, live in a state of fear, awe, worship, and service.
-Stc Michael
“I disagree with Janet's take on scripture” might be a little strong. These are contentious matters, which for thousands of years our best minds have engaged without producing more than several alternatives that sometimes lead to conflicting results. We aren’t going to solve them; and really that was the beginning of my deep sense of being unsettled. I wish I knew and understood, but I don’t and am not sure that I or anyone can.
It is blunt, it could be over strong, but it was not made to cause insult.
I don't think there's a way to escape the conflicting views until the veil lifts and we "know". Until then God's purposes with free will clouds all men's judgments. Having said that, some seem to place God so far out of reach that they miss His outstretched hand.
-Stc Michael
I agree with that last point particularly.
I have a different take on it, although I don't think my take necessarily contradicts the ones already put forth. I think Tex, Janet, Grim, and Stc Michael all make good points. But what is the goal of theology? Is it just knowing about God, or knowing God?
In the East, it's said that theology is prayer. If theology is just knowing about God, it can remain an intellectual exercise, but if it is knowing God, then it must be mystical. You can read all the books in the world about George Washington, and even write your own about him, but it's not the same as having been good friends with him during his life. To know the person, you have to spend time with him.
Another difference is in the goal. Part of the point of intellectual theology is to be able to make strong arguments about God, to convince others ideally, but for mystical theology, knowing God doesn't entail that commitment. The argument presented to others is living a Godly life. This is a very different epistemology both in its practice and its product. (This is also theosis, for those who followed that previous conversation.)
Mysticism is often linked with asceticism, but it needn't be. Mysticism is just seeking a direct experience of God. Thus, it is commonplace, something all of us can achieve, not some experience you only have on, e.g., Mount Athos.
How is it commonplace? God has always told man where and when to meet Him, and we still know. It's written in the Bible. All of the sacraments are meetings with God. This is literally true, not a metaphor. To take two examples, God is present in the Eucharist, so many people can meet God physically on a regular, weekly basis. God is also there during confession, so there's another opportunity. Beyond the sacraments, God is present wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name, and most of us can reach that on a daily basis, even if it's just a 5-minute morning prayer with the family. Individual prayer, of course, is good for all of us, I think.
However, then you have the same problem as the mystic, ...: how much of what you are 'finding out about God' really is your imagination rather than a genuine encounter with the divine?
This goes back to the epistemological goal, which, again, is not the same for mysticism as it is for intellectual approaches. For the mystic, Godliness (theosis) is the goal and the resulting argument for God is living a Godly life as a witness to others. While new intellectual insights are great and can happen this way, it's not the goal.
How can we know the difference between genuine encounters and our own imagination? First and foremost we rely on what God has told us works: regular participation in the sacraments and regular worship with other Christians. He has told us He will be there at those times and places and, if we want to know Him, we should be at the appointed times and places. Those are all genuine encounters.
So what about individual knowledge? After all, we have questions and would like some answers, right? As we spend more time with God, I think we develop a kind of phronesis regarding the divine, and we can check with Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and other Christians. Sometimes in spending time with God we may get direct answers, which we can check the same ways. But it doesn't seem like anyone gets all the answers, at least not here and now.
Another approach is suggested by the role of fear in wisdom.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all those who practice it." -- Psalms 111:10
It's interesting that we should practice fear of the Lord in order to gain understanding.
A quick search for "the fear of the Lord" on Bible Gateway brings up quite a few verses where God commands the Israelites to fear the Lord.
An interesting one is a summary of the Law in Deuteronomy 10, beginning w/ 10:12:
“And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I command you this day for your good? Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it; yet the Lord set his heart in love upon your fathers and chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as at this day.
On a side note, I don't see any doubt in the Old Testament that God does choose nations and people. He clearly took sides all through the OT and I've never heard any strong argument that He didn't.
What about today, though? That's where things are unclear for me, but I am no scholar of these matters.
Rudolf Otto explored some of this in The Idea of the Holy, (my thoughts here), which he begins by explaining that those who have never experienced anything like this will have no idea what he is writing about, and may as well just put the book down.
He doesn't deal with the question of whether we are made to encounter the holy in particular ways (alternatively, whether the particular ways are made for us to be able to encounter God). I'm Christian, and believe that God is able to make ways for us to encounter Him, despite the overwhelming difference between us.
James:
The reason Otto calls the numinous 'non-rational' is rooted in Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. The numinous is whatever really exists as it really is; it isn't just God, but anything. Kant explains that, in order for us to encounter it, we have to process our experience into a new form, which he calls not 'noumena' but 'phenomena.' Thus, we experience through five senses, but our mind transforms these five separate inputs into a single experience: this one thing we see and smell and touch isn't the thing as it is, but the thing as our brain processes it to be. Our brains also impose 3-dimensional qualities on it (Kant assumed Cartesian physics were actually real; we now know they aren't quite), and other rational rules that it, our brain, needs to process the experience.
This whole process is called "transcendental apperception." A consequence of it is that we can't actually experience anything as it really is; we can only experience our experience of it, which is edited and limited in several ways. Thus, to experience something numinous (including and here especially the divine) requires us to experience something pre-rationally, something as it is before our rationality has imposed itself on the experience, and therefore non-rationally.
By the way, that anticipates your addition in point 4: having a genuinely numinal encounter of any kind, with any created being, would be like this. It could be an angel, another person, or anything you found a way to encounter outside of the limits of our mind and reason.
I suppose I should swing in here and add some comments, since it would seem that I gave a false impression of my views-- what I actually said was that theodicy (an attempt to "vindicate" God in light of evil in the world) is hopeless. I don't actually think that God is unknowable, full stop, although it's wise to remember that any positive statement about God is only by analogy (per St. Thomas Aquinas).
Yes, we have scripture to help us understand... but the Protestant experience certainly shows that there are basically as many ways to disagree about scripture, as there are human beings. As a Catholic, I also lay claim to the compiled wisdom and lived experience that is the Magisterium. But even more, the root of why we can understand anything is the Incarnation (which took human nature and united it with the divine, making us capax dei, capable of God) and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But we're assured of the quiet inspiration of the Spirit at the time it's needed to act-- God doesn't give us a detailed roadmap in advance, but rather is giving turn-by-turn guidance, if you will.
I don't doubt the existence of signs and miracles. I've experienced them directly myself. But much caution is called for in interpreting these things-- for one thing, evil spirits can produce a very persuasive fakery of signs and wonders. More commonly, we deceive ourselves, that what we want is divinely ordained. All of this falls into the category of "private revelations"... summarizing a lot of teaching in a sentence or two: private revelations will apply only to those they are directed to, not the general public, and VERY commonly have an admixture of true and false components (when they are not outright frauds). There's never any harm in disbelieving the validity of private revelation, although in exceptional cases the Church will declare one to be worthy of consideration, after extensive investigation (e.g. Lourdes).
So, my interpretation of the Trump near-miss: there are many people who have been fantasizing, even praying, that God would solve their political problems by taking Trump's life-- the civilized ones wished he'd have a heart attack or something, and the uncivilized ones wished for a murder. By showing the murder almost happening, but then being snatched away, I would say that those people should learn not to blaspheme (but most of them don't seem to be doing so). If you weren't wishing for God to violently resolve your political problems, then I doubt this "revelation" (if that's what it is) is directed to you.
Does God favor one side or the other, in a political dispute? Well, in Jesus's time, the burning political question was how to react to the brutal, unjust Roman occupation. And among the men he chose as Apostles, were two Zealots who had supported violent revolt, and one man who had been a tax collector (thus, a collaborator). His disciples were so sure that he was going to "restore the Kingdom" (kick out the Romans and rule from Jerusalem) that they were actually urging the resurrected Jesus to get on with it. But his Kingdom was entirely different than what they thought, and in fact, all of them would live under, and mostly die under, Roman rule. And good Christians have lived under every kind of secular rule on the planet.
So... yeah. God has given us Americans the great good gift of a real say in our system of government. We should make prudent use of this gift! But, these are human judgments and plans, not divine. We have a very small say in who is president, and proportionately much more over, say, who is on the local school board; so, if you ask me, our attention and efforts should be directed according to that proportion. Or even, as has been the case with commenters here, to heed the call to actually serve in an elected capacity, if you are called to that.
-- Janet
james, I read your post and I have questions.
You wrote: This experience of the holy Otto sees (and I think correctly) as the origin and source of power of all religions. Even the purely artificial religions—burning incense to the spirit of the emperor or worship of the Communist Party Revolution are piggy-backing on more spontaneous religions (communism is often described as a Christian heresy).
What do you mean by 'religion' here? I was having this conversation recently about whether we can call wokism a religion, as John McWhorter claims. This kind of identification of wokism or Communism as a religion seems derogatory toward religion. That is, the implication seems to be that religion is an irrational commitment to unquestionable dogmas. But is that what religion is? I don't think so. It can have that, but that is not by any means necessary. How do you see Communism as religion?
Also, what is the emperor reference to? Is that Shinto, or did you have something else in mind?
Janet, what a good response. I thought it might have been a private revelation to Trump that he needs to start taking eternity more seriously. Of course, it might have been a divine action with no particular revelation involved. Maybe God was just saying "Nah, I have other plans."
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