So too philosophy, especially metaphysics: it may not be useful at all, but that is because it is the study of the very highest things.
So I'm going to answer this question at length. Out of courtesy for the rest of you, I'll put it beyond a jump break so that you can dodge the question if you want.
OK, for those of you who are still here, let's go through the differences between Plato and Aristotle's approach to physics and metaphysics, and why you can't readily synthesize them. It will be helpful to read the comment thread that originated this discussion.
Aristotle and Plato both agree that physical reality is composed of things that are made of form and matter. Such a system is called hylomorphic, hyle (pr. HOO-lay) being the Greek for 'matter' and morph for the form that something takes. Their models nevertheless differ fundamentally. For Plato, the Form of the thing is a kind of idea that lives in a mind -- probably a divine mind, which later monotheistic thinkers recognized as the Mind of God. The physical thing is a kind of manifestation of a divine Idea, which has the physical 'form' that it has because it the matter is being ordered that way by the divine power. Many religious thinkers have liked this approach for obvious reasons, but it has also appealed to brilliant scientists like Einstein as well as rationalist philosophers like Kant (more on that later).
Aristotle has a much simpler-to-grasp idea: the form, he proposes, is in the thing. Consider the parts of a table, all lying in a heap on the floor. All the same material parts are there as the table would have, but it is not a table until it is put into the correct form. The form is thus immaterial: it is the way the material is ordered. Once the form is in the thing, the thing comes to be what it is: a table, whereas before it was a heap.
Aristotle's system still has a divine mind that is thinking about divine thoughts -- thought thinking itself -- but it is not transcendent like Plato's. These are the unmoved movers. They do end up driving the whole universe, as it happens, but not in the same way that Plato thought: their immaterial perfection, being pure form without matter, is so admirable that those beings who can see them try to imitate them as best as they can. These motions aim at circularity, because the circle is the closest thing to a perfect motion that a material being can obtain; and that is why the stars circle the Earth, because they are imitating the unmoved mover as well as they can. This keeps the universe in motion and accounts for most of the movement in reality, except in the sublunar realm where we are (and also where things are strangely worse; there is corruption here, and not above).
Monotheists who followed Aristotle, such as Aquinas and Avicenna and Maimonides and Gersonides, dispose of all the unmoved movers except one, who is God. They have increasingly disposed of the whole account of motion, which in the early Modern era proved to be implausible. It seemed pretty good for a long time, though: you can see that the stars move in circles around the earth by direct observation of them. Just watch, they do it every night. Thus earth must be at the center of the universe. Why? Well, it seems to be its natural place: pick up a piece of the earth, like a rock, and drop it. It moves toward the center of the universe, i.e., down. Water falls from the sky and forms lakes on top of the earth, and if you drop your rock into the water it goes to the bottom. Thus the element of earth has a natural place at the center of the universe; water above that; air above that; and if you light a fire, it goes up towards the stars. Thus, we can see how the universe is ordered by direct observation. That sounded good for a long time, and you probably have heard the story about how it stopped sounding good.
Anyway, a consequence of this approach is that Aristotle was much more interested in what we would today call physical science -- he called in the science of nature, ϕυσικά, which gives us our word physics. (For most of the period this was called natural philosophy, a term Newton was still using.) Because the form is in the thing, we can come to know it and its causal properties; and because the form is so tightly connected with the end or purpose of a thing, telos, the formal and final causes are often the same. A science of nature makes sense, then, because we are studying the forms -- the order in which things are -- and also the matter that is in those forms, and thus we can make an orderly investigation and study of nature.
Plato doesn't write a lot about physics, because he believes the Forms that are the ultimate causes of things are not readily observable. He gives an account of this in the Republic, in his famous Parable of the Cave. Most people are like people strapped into their seats in a cave, with a big fire behind them that is causing shadows to be cast on the wall in front of them. The reality they think they observe is the interaction of these shadows, but they are unable to see what is really producing the shadows. Think of shadow puppets made with your fingers, that look like rabbits or whatever but are really quite different than their appearance as a shadow suggests. Only the philosopher is able to get free and realize what is going on; and the best philosopher can go beyond that, getting out of the cave and its fire in order to experience the sun and the world. Most people never do that, but spend their lives focused on the shadow drama.
There's not much point in studying the shadow-drama, then: it's not real. Physics becomes much less interesting if it is not able to approach real, capital-T Truth. It's still useful for engineers, but notice that it is merely useful. It is not the highest thing, because it's just a tool for obtaining other things that matter more. Plato's aims are higher.
The Aristotelian and Platonic causal systems thus don't blend well enough to synthesize them. They're talking about two different pictures of reality, and differ sharply on the question of how much we can know about reality by observing physics. In the Modern age, this clash played out again with Newton et al taking the Aristotelian position that there were laws of nature we could identify and come to know through study. David Hume rejected that idea, arguing that 'the secret springs of nature' were hidden to us; Newton could say a lot about gravity, for example, except exactly what it was and what caused it. (Newton admitted as much; he described the inverse square law of gravity, but as to why things worked that way he wrote 'I make no hypotheses.') Hume said that we, like observers of the shadow puppet show, could only talk about things that we observed happening together -- but we couldn't be sure why they happened together, and the fact that they did might be a mere coincidence that just happened to occur over and over. The source of the Forms behind the show remains hidden.
Immanuel Kant tried to reconcile this in his first critique, but he ended up making it worse. He recognized this distinction between phenomena, the stuff we can encounter and observe, and noumena, the things as they really are. Kant went on to prove, devastatingly, that the nature of our minds makes it impossible to ever observe or encounter noumena at all: phenomena are all we will ever have. Thus there is no possibility of learning the capital-T Truth about anything outside of our minds; useful study of phenomena is all we'll ever have. Kant denies both the Aristotelian/Newtonian concept that we can obtain the truth by studying nature, and the Platonic idea that we can obtain the truth through philosophical reflection.
Obviously we can still do lots of useful things, though; physics remains worthwhile as a handmaiden to engineering. As a road to Truth, however, it is closed.
So too philosophy, especially metaphysics: it may not be useful at all, but that is because it is the study of the very highest things.
ReplyDeleteIn a way, then, it is similar to basic research.
Thank you very much for this explanation. It's very interesting to me. I'll have to think more about it tomorrow.
You're welcome. I should probably say more about Kant's explanation, and why it's so devastating.
ReplyDeleteConsider the simplest sort of thing we might encounter: something like a stop sign. We see it as bright red, and if we get out and feel of it, it is hard to the touch. If we rap it, it rings true because it is steel. We think we know a lot about it.
Kant points out that this is not reliable at all, because our minds are unifying five separate senses of this thing -- whatever it is -- into one experience. Is it really red? No, it is reflecting a particular set of light waves that our eyes and brain interpret as red. Somehow our mind also adds the sense of touch to that, so the 'red' thing 'feels' hard. If we rap it, our experience of hearing makes this one thing seem like it rings true while being red and hard. Should you lick it -- which you shouldn't -- it will taste metallic. Etc.
We have five completely separate sets of data, but the mind makes it one thing. We have good reason for doubting that some of these things -- like color -- are 'real' in a perfect sense. They're interpretive. So why wouldn't all of them be similarly unreal interpretations? We have no way of knowing.
What the thing really is, itself, is completely beyond us because we can only encounter it in this filtered mental process. (Kant called this 'transcendental apperception.') Every test we might set up will also be filtered in the same way, so each test -- however careful -- is just another phenomenon. We never get at the noumena.
Usefulness we do get; but not, not ever, Truth.
I'll bring over some key parts of your explanation from the previous thread:
ReplyDeleteFor Aristotle, there are at least four causes for anything, although it is usually possible to collapse those four into two: material and formal, efficient and final. Material cause has to do with what the material can and can't do: a saw can't come to be out of wool, as he says. Efficient is what we usually think of as a cause: you struck a match and used it to start the fire, and thus the striking of the match was the cause of the fire. Formal has to do with the order that is at work: the table is flat because a table isn't useful if it isn't flat. Final has to do with why someone went to the trouble of making it: the efficient cause of the fire is the match, but the final cause is that I was cold and decided to build a fire to get warm. I could only build that fire out of something that would burn like wood or coal (material), and I needed to lay the pieces of that substance in a stack so they would catch each other and consume properly (formal).
...
And [the baby] has a final cause, too. Father and mother may not have even considered the child when they chose to mate, for reasons of their own: but the child has a reason to be that is completely apart from their intentions towards it. The baby is making himself (or herself) into himself (etc), for reasons of the baby's own -- and that from the beginning.
You also mention that, for Aristotle, final causes are a function of the thing's nature, and its nature is a function of its form.
I'll take two approaches here to understanding all this. First, let's run with Aristotle's ideas. From a Christian perspective (mine, anyway) they seem incomplete. I can accept his 4 causes, but then, there are also divine purposes.
ReplyDeleteMight it be possible to simply extend Aristotle's 4 into 5? I seem to remember when I was reading an intro to Aristotle's thought that he didn't propose that everything had all four causes, although maybe I'm misremembering. But, if that is right and some things might have only 3 of the causes, then couldn't other things have 5?
For example, in your example of the baby, we have all 4 of Aristotle's causes in play, but there would also be a divine purpose, so the baby would have 5 causes.
Note I am not here trying to synthesize Plato and Aristotle's ideas, but rather simply to extend Aristotle's ideas to include the Christian idea of divine purpose.
That is approach 1.
For approach 2, I think I need to understand Plato's idea of causality better. What would he say causes things? Is it just the divine mind thinking?
ReplyDeleteI can understand God as the source of the existence of all things: He caused it and sustains it. Is that similar to what Plato meant? Or, at least, how Christian philosophers have interpreted him?
In any case, within creation, there would still be cause and effect, so it seems possible that Aristotle's account of causes (or someone else's, of course) could operate within creation. Although, for Plato, these causes and effects wouldn't really matter because they aren't real, are they?
This actually seems somewhat similar to Buddhist ideas.
While some of Plato's ideas may be appealing for a Christian, doesn't Scripture indicate that we can learn from nature?
ReplyDeleteWe have Psalms 19:1: "The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork."
as well as Romans 1:20: "Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. ..."
Of course, now I'm inserting divine revelation into a philosophical argument. I suppose the right way to do that would be to argue that if God is the Creator, we could learn from His handiwork, much like we can learn about an artist from the artist's work.
"...rather simply to extend Aristotle's ideas to include the Christian idea of divine purpose."
ReplyDeleteYou're not the first to want to do this (neither Christian nor Jewish nor Muslim). There's a problem with trying to adapt Aristotle's model in this way.
Avicenna was the first -- to my knowledge -- to give a plausible account of God as Aristotle's Unmoved Mover. The problem is that the Unmoved Mover is immaterial, pure form, and thus pure activity. The activity is thought thinking itself. Because form = active and matter = potential, being a pure activity means that you have no potentiality. Thus, you are what you are and you can be nothing else.
This is a problem for monotheistic attempts to adapt Aristotle to their metaphysics. For one thing, it appears to deny the omnipotence of God by denying him the potential to do anything. God is already doing everything he can do, and it is the divine nature to do so.
But for another, it would seem to deny God knowledge of particulars. The Unmoved Mover is thought thinking itself. If it is thinking about itself, it isn't thinking of anything else. The production of the world ends up being a kind of accidental product of the divine thought, and a product that is full of potential because it is full of matter. A pure activity doesn't seem capable of including potential in itself, and it isn't clear that it can think about potential either. Potentiality is alien to the Aristotelian pure, immaterial form that the Unmoved Mover is supposed to be.
Some monotheistic Aristotelians just bite the bullet here, and admit that God can't and doesn't have any relations with His creation. This works reasonably well in Islam, where it isn't important to relate directly to Allah -- even Muhammad's prophecies were supposed to be brought to him by an angelic being, Gabriel as I recall, rather than being communications direct from Allah. An archangel is the kind of being who can look upon God, and thus fits into Aristotle's model roughly where the souls of the spheres that move the stars would.
Others, like St. Thomas Aquinas, couldn't accept this consequence. Aquinas argues that God's perfection of knowledge means that, in knowing himself, he knows all the consequences of himself. That includes you, and thus allows God to know you. It would also seem to allow the divine purpose a road into your life.
I don't know what Aristotle would say about that as a 'fifth cause.' I think he might say that -- in cases where a divine being is directing your life -- it replaces the ordinary final cause. He would be thinking of less powerful deities like Apollo, but should a god give you a purpose for your life (Socrates claims exactly this in the Apology) it might become your final cause.
"While some of Plato's ideas may be appealing for a Christian, doesn't Scripture indicate that we can learn from nature?"
ReplyDeleteYes, and this is a question that is treated in all the Aristotelian philosophers I was mentioning as well. They're very interested in this approach of 'knowing God by his works.' It turns out that you can't do so perfectly, however, because of God's infinite nature and your finite one.
In fact, it turns out that you can't know anything about God well enough to understand it except negatively. So, if you know that God is good, you don't really understand God's goodness because it is infinite; but you do know that God is not evil, because that is the negative of good.
(Aquinas again has an exception here: because of divine grace, God could permit particular saints a kind of knowledge they can't attain on their own.)
We don't know a lot about what Plato would have thought about this question, but the Neoplatonic school that formed after him would reject it. The developed a metaphysical model in which the world, though created by the divine thought-thinking-itself, is a kind of error whose pursuit takes you further away from the Oneness that is divine. They want a model that stops discursive thought and returns to unity -- as you say, somewhat like Zen Buddhism.
Well, none of that about the Unmoved Mover makes any sense to me. Pure activity must have potential because something is happening -- If nothing can happen, then there is no activity. Poof -- God ceases to exist. Right there you know I've gone entirely off the rails and probably have no idea what Aristotle or Avicenna mean by these terms.
ReplyDeleteI think maybe I don't really understand the difference between matter and form, potential and activity. Although an hour ago I thought I had some understanding of the Prime Mover, now I realize I probably don't really know anything about what Aristotle meant by first movers except that there are such things, and that they are necessary.
I suspect the SEP has something on this I could read, but that will have to wait for a day or two.
I must also confess that I don't see much to agree with in Plato or the Neo-Platonists. I shouldn't say that because I haven't studied Plato, but I have yet to hear very much from his school that I find worthwhile.
For example, Aristotle's idea of form makes sense, but the Platonic Forms don't really. I think the idea of Forms is a product of the way the human mind works, not the universe. Of course, I've been infected with linguistics, and Wittgenstein.
Anyway, sorry for the digression. So, did Plato relegate causation just to divine thought?
I don't know what Aristotle would say about that as a 'fifth cause.'
ReplyDeleteSome part of any discussion of philosophy for me will always be pragmatic. It is not just about what the particular philosopher in question thought, but what I should think, too, or how I can use what they thought. Maybe that makes me unsuited for pure philosophy, but there it is.
It turns out that you can't do so perfectly, however, because of God's infinite nature and your finite one.
That would seem to be true of human art as well, in the sense that I might be able to learn about an artist's style and background, and might be able to reasonably speculate about some aspects of the artist's personality, just from viewing many of his works, but I wouldn't actually be able to know the artist directly from that.
Yes, there's a lot to understand. I'll be happy to speak to any questions you develop as you study.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of potency and actuality, in general matter (hule) is potential, and forms are actual. However, every object you'll encounter is both potential and actual. A tree is actually a tree and potentially wood for construction. If cut down, it is actually wood and potentially lumber. If milled into lumber, it is actually lumber and potentially part of your house or part of a ship. If assembled in one way or the other, it is now actually part of a house or a ship.
Being put into a new form changes its actuality -- tree, wood, lumber, ship -- and creates new potentials. In this way, Aristotle says that a potential is a kind of 'first actuality.' It isn't actually a ship as lumber, but it has the actual potential to become a ship. Another kind of thing lacks that potential (say wool, which is potentially a sail but not a ship).
Since forms both are and create actualities, including by changing existing potentials into new first actualities, forms are associated with activity.
Now forms are immaterial as explained above. The table parts are not a table; it is only when they are put into the form of a table that they become an actual table. Yet all the material parts are the same. Thus, the form both creates the actuality and yet is not itself material. Therefore, forms are immaterial actualities.
So what if it was possible to have something that was a pure form, like the unmoved mover? The unmoved mover, being immaterial, has no potential but only activity. It is a pure activity, so that it is always doing the thing that it does; but, at the same time, it can't stop doing it or start doing anything else. It has no potential to be anything other than what it is.
This creates a lot of difficulty when you try to bring it into one of the monotheistic religions, who want God to be a lot of things that doesn't quite comply with Aristotle's model. There are a lot of arguments about this in Medieval philosophy, where different philosophers try to figure out a way to read Aristotle that complies with their scriptures.
"...I have yet to hear very much from his school that I find worthwhile."
ReplyDeleteThe only defense of Neoplatonism is that it might be true. If so, it is worthwhile even if it isn't useful -- even if, in fact, it proves the impossibility of many things that are highly desirable. I tend to think that Plotinus, the founder of the school, understood more and saw further than almost any other philosopher. He's extremely hard to read, though; and the whole school inclines one to mysticism, which exalts the true over the useful. There are practical and pragmatic dangers to that; some argue that the long slumber of the Islamic civilization came from the rise of Sufiism, which replaced Aristotelian Islamic philosophy with a similar mystical approach.
There is probably a good synthesis here, at least, that would allow for the pragmatic pursuit of the useful without losing the understanding that the merely useful isn't a candidate for ultimate Truth.
"The problem is that the Unmoved Mover is immaterial,..."
ReplyDeleteDon't we have here the cave problem yet again, in essence? The prime mover, being outside the physical universe, is as the shadows in the cave- we can see only a distorted image of the thing itself. Being metaphysical means we cannot comprehend it truly, in a similar way as "Flatland" shows how a two dimensional creature would not really understand three dimensions- and those two states are far closer than the physical and the metaphysical.
Just a thought.
I've thoroughly enjoyed the back and forth, even as I probably only understand a fraction of it.