Rubio, who really does not approve of people studying philosophy as he also ran it down repeatedly at the Red State Gathering, said during tonight's debate that 'welders make more money than philosophers. We need more welders and fewer philosophers.' Rubio is an Aristotelian without knowing it, because unlike the Platonists he divorces practical wisdom from theoretical contemplation. The problem with not studying philosophy is that you can't escape it. If you aren't trained, you simply are driven by ideas that come from you know not where, and which bear consequences you have not considered.
For example, consider his claims about the market. If the first assumption is true -- that welders make more money than philosophers -- isn't the second principle analytic? Not only is the market aware of the need, it's adjusted compensation accordingly. Won't, then, the market make sure we get the welders we need without us having to do anything at all?
Why are we even talking about this? Because he wants to meddle with the market, of course, by pushing vocational programs. He thinks government meddling is the answer to a market problem: we value welders more, and even pay them more, yet for some reason our schools keep producing philosophers instead of welders.
I'm not sure that the first assumption is true, actually: welders make very wide ranges in salary depending on their specialty. Philosophers also vary widely depending on their institution's prestige and funding. Although right now the move to make faculty into adjunct rather than tenure-track has really depressed compensation, those who do succeed at gaining a tenure track position do quite well. Some welders make great money, and some don't. I'm the grandson of a welder. He didn't get rich. He did survive the great depression, though I gather for a long time the only welding people would pay for was the crafting of whiskey stills. But people would pay for that.
On the other hand, the reason to study philosophy isn't so you'll become rich. It's because, as Aristotle says at the beginning of the Metaphysics, "All men by nature desire to know." It's nice if that turns into a paying gig, but it's a universal claim: all desire to know, so it's a study that is proper to any sort of person at all. Not everyone has an equal capacity for it, but everyone has some capacity, and some natural drive and desire for it. We want to know, we want to understand, and we want to pursue this knowledge as well as we can. Philosophy is not the only road these days, but it is the ground of all of the roads, and it is their meeting place.
UPDATE: You know who has a degree in philosophy (and Medieval studies)? Carly Fiorina.
"Philosophy doesn't work when you run something." -- John Kasich
ReplyDeleteNot going for the Hall's vote, I see.
That's all right. He wasn't going to get it anyway.
ReplyDeleteRubio would have served his cause better by suggesting that a college education, in and of itself, is not a ticket to prosperity.
ReplyDeleteOr he could have cited Newman's "Idea of a University"; but then, I doubt that he ever heard of John Cardinal Newman, or that he understands the metaphysics of J.H.Cdl. Newman's position.
The uni produce horrible philosophers because of livestock management. If they want to manage the livestock to produce more welders... maybe they should go for free range. What they shouldn't do is use federal funds to create Yales and other schools like them in the US, that produces the various "thinkers" we see on youtube all the time, and which the MSM likes to cover up.
ReplyDeleteI refer to the New New campus activists of the Left, comparable to 1960s.
Also some welders aren't the blue collar, technical subordinates alot of the higher ups think of them. Some welders are turning into independent blacksmith and they now somehow make swords as part of their income...
So, lets start with the idea that you later make claim as moot:
ReplyDelete" isn't the second principle analytic? Not only is the market aware of the need, it's adjusted compensation accordingly. Won't, then, the market make sure we get the welders we need without us having to do anything at all?
Why are we even talking about this? Because he wants to meddle with the market, of course, by pushing vocational programs. He thinks government meddling is the answer to a market problem: we value welders more, and even pay them more, yet for some reason our schools keep producing philosophers instead of welders."
No, because the market has already been meddled with. We've artificially pushed vast numbers (though I think the peak has passed, I believe there are still many) of students going to college who basically have no business being there, and/or are enrolled to obtain degrees that will not serve them in the future except as an anchor 'round their necks, and a handy grievance. This has had the simultaneous effect of removing from the pool which would normally go to technical and vocational training, creating an artificial shortage of skilled workers in those fields. What Rubio is advocating is either a corrective, or if you like, a secondary meddling borne of previous meddling.
Okay, so what about this:
"I'm not sure that the first assumption is true, actually: welders make very wide ranges in salary depending on their specialty. Philosophers also vary widely"
Well, first, there is the cost of entrance- if you want to teach philosophy, you almost certainly need a doctorate. That's going to be a minimum of 7 years of college, which one has to then compare to someone with a high school diploma who stars working in welding, and by the time that seven years is over, may well be moving up from a welder I or II position to a supervisorial position that pays perhaps 10-12k more annually, and all this instead of acquiring a mountain of student loan debt (not necessarily so for all, but for far too many to be sure). That's a hell of a head start.
Looking at the list of salaries related to philosophy degrees, it looks like some are surely those who got an undergraduate in philosophy, and went on to get a degree in a hard science like biology ("research scientist", "Senior research scientist, biotechnology"). Those also tended to be higher paying jobs excepting the full tenured professorships. Are those scientific job holders what people think of when we talk about philosophers colloquially? No, I don't think so. Also of note is that there are a few hundred slots for jobs available for philosophy degree holders. There are a great many more welding jobs available.
" I'm the grandson of a welder. He didn't get rich."
Sure, but-
a) He probably did ok.
b) There were a great many more men who could weld and fewer with Philosophy degrees then, and the inverse now. These are critical factors.
I have heard that an undergraduate degree in philosophy turns out to be a better preparation for the LSAT and Law School than Poli Sci- and really, I'm not surprised, so there certainly can be great value to a philosophy degree- in financial terms- I've always believed there to be great value to studying philosophy otherwise.
So, as for the first comment, OK -- the market has been meddled with, in largest part by the government making radically larger student loans available (which has benefited not students, mostly, but colleges -- and not in their essential nature as educational institutions, but in their accidental nature as havens for government spending). On the other hand, the force of that is greatly reduced if it turns out that Rubio was badly wrong about the relative pay grades of philosophy majors and welders. There have been at least three pieces today pointing out just how bad his math was. One of them's just from Vox, though... still, they seem to be on the same page as everyone else today. I saw a third one, but can't find it now.
ReplyDeleteWell, first, there is the cost of entrance- if you want to teach philosophy, you almost certainly need a doctorate.
Well, yeah, but you don't have to teach it to make good money. In fact, it may be better for you financially if you take the benefits of the education in how to think, and apply it to some profitable purpose. The drag on your salary comes when you consider doctorates in philosophy. Considering all people who get degrees in philosophy -- Rubio's point -- and the average salary surpasses $80,000 at peak of career according to the WPost data.
Sure, but- a) He probably did ok. b) There were a great many more men who could weld and fewer with Philosophy degrees then, and the inverse now.
I don't know that this is true either. Consider that welding used to be a localized commodity, and now is globalized. My grandfather would now be competing with welders in China, who save money by avoiding eye protection and go blind in 15 years (or so they did in 2001, when we lived there). It's a very different market thanks to the end of protectionism and the arrival of just-in-time cheap global shipping.
There is little question that if you get a degree in philosophy you may make much better money than even the top welders- Exhibit A is Carly Fiorina. But she's not a philosopher, she's a successful CEO who has a degree in philosophy. That's the primary error in the quick 'let me check some website for data' "research" journalism that we get these days, and purports to 'fact check' for us. I mentioned above that Philosophy is great for preparing to become a lawyer, and I'm sure we all know for a fact that lawyers on average make more than welders. Of course, a welder who then gets a business degree and becomes CEO of his welding company isn't going to be put in the statistics as a welder anymore, is he? Now, I don't have the time to dig up the numbers to prove my point, but I will say that I have yet to see a convincing argument to "prove" Rubio incorrect.
ReplyDeleteYour last point is true is so far as production line welding goes, but there are many welding jobs that are site based and can't be 'shipped out'. If you're willing to go where the jobs are, there's welding work to be done- Midland Texas in the 50's, or North Dakota or the Gulf Coast today. Something like welding in a more rural locale has the disadvantage of a limited demand- as I'm sure you and more so your Grandfather, are well aware of.
Well, that's right -- those are the welders who still make good money. Them and the ones who have specialized skills, such as marine welding, which not just everyone can do who is otherwise a decent welder.
ReplyDeleteThat's the primary error in the quick 'let me check some website for data' "research" journalism that we get these days, and purports to 'fact check' for us.
That's fair, and it is why the piece I pulled was about working philosophers rather than people with philosophy degrees. On the other hand, Rubio is talking about the value of one's education -- the larger frame for the discussion is reforming education support to drive more people to seek vocational degrees and fewer philosophy degrees. So the question about whether a philosophy degree proves valuable is also interesting, and indeed relevant.