"I know what you’re thinking: “That’s not true Brett! Look at like the 1950s. Women were feminine and submissive and men were manly and that was just 60 years ago!” I think because of the vintage aesthetics of AoM, people figure we’re blindly nostalgic about the past. But because we spend so much of our time immersed in research and primary sources from history, few people know as well as we do what is and is not true about “the good old days.”
In truth, even in the 1940s and 1950s, men were complaining about women being too assertive, too demanding, and too career-minded. They pined for the “good old days” of their grandparents’ time in the 19th century when men were men and women were women! But when you read the literature from the 19th century, men complained about henpecking wives and women who were doing manly things like wearing pantaloons and smoking cigarettes. Heck, even Socrates complained about his nagging wife way back in antiquity!"
That doesn't explain how Japan is modern, not nostalgic 1950s America, yet is backwards socially like 1950s America on steroids.
They consider it an advancement of social harmony, but modern Western morality can only consider the Japanese ethic of manliness to be backwards socially.
Japan seems to be having a lot of trouble with its success too, Ymar. Their birth rate suggests a culture that has fallen into despair, though they have greater prosperity and technology than really anywhere else on earth.
I'm glad you liked them, Cass. They're interesting pieces to read together, I think.
Japan's birth rate is comparable to other 1st world nations, like the US. Except they don't let immigrants in the way the US does, so the population curve for them keeps going down.
But Europe's Islamic Jihad immigrants and America's Major Hasan type issues will probably blow up faster and quicker, than a slower decline would warrant. Slower is better, since people can fix it. Fast into war, and it all burns down to ash.
Tonight I read Kipling's poem "If" to my son at bedtime, Daughter was already asleep. Many years of struggling to be a good man has allowed me to understand the right-ness of Kipling's poem, but what about for a woman? I got to thinking that when she's a little older, I don't know what to turn to as a guide for being a good woman. What shall I read her as an equivalent?
Hmm, yes and no. Not in the same way as to my son. I watch the boys and girls in 6th grade (where my son is now) and they are different- the ways they succeed, the ways they hurt each other, the ways they show concern for others. It's not that they don't have universal similarities too, of course they do, but to me, "If" gets right to the heart of what a man wants to be- should strive to be, in a way that I don't imagine it would to a girl (generalizing, of course). Reading it again, yes, much of it serves as just as sound advice to a female as to male, but perhaps it's the phrasing, perhaps the 'tone' of Kipling himself. Or maybe I'm just an old fashioned sexist who doesn't get women ;) Well, the 'doesn't get women' part is true!
It's always spoken to me; I can't imagine why it wouldn't--except for the slightly jarring note at the end. "Wait a minute: if I do all these good things, won't I still be a woman?" But of course I'm used to having to read "man" as "adult human."
Look at it again. Is there really any advice in there that wouldn't be excellent for a woman?
"I know what you’re thinking: “That’s not true Brett! Look at like the 1950s. Women were feminine and submissive and men were manly and that was just 60 years ago!” I think because of the vintage aesthetics of AoM, people figure we’re blindly nostalgic about the past. But because we spend so much of our time immersed in research and primary sources from history, few people know as well as we do what is and is not true about “the good old days.”
ReplyDeleteIn truth, even in the 1940s and 1950s, men were complaining about women being too assertive, too demanding, and too career-minded. They pined for the “good old days” of their grandparents’ time in the 19th century when men were men and women were women! But when you read the literature from the 19th century, men complained about henpecking wives and women who were doing manly things like wearing pantaloons and smoking cigarettes. Heck, even Socrates complained about his nagging wife way back in antiquity!"
That doesn't explain how Japan is modern, not nostalgic 1950s America, yet is backwards socially like 1950s America on steroids.
They consider it an advancement of social harmony, but modern Western morality can only consider the Japanese ethic of manliness to be backwards socially.
Wow. Both fantastic articles, Grim.
ReplyDeleteJapan seems to be having a lot of trouble with its success too, Ymar. Their birth rate suggests a culture that has fallen into despair, though they have greater prosperity and technology than really anywhere else on earth.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you liked them, Cass. They're interesting pieces to read together, I think.
Japan's birth rate is comparable to other 1st world nations, like the US. Except they don't let immigrants in the way the US does, so the population curve for them keeps going down.
ReplyDeleteBut Europe's Islamic Jihad immigrants and America's Major Hasan type issues will probably blow up faster and quicker, than a slower decline would warrant. Slower is better, since people can fix it. Fast into war, and it all burns down to ash.
Two first-rate articles.
ReplyDeleteTonight I read Kipling's poem "If" to my son at bedtime, Daughter was already asleep. Many years of struggling to be a good man has allowed me to understand the right-ness of Kipling's poem, but what about for a woman? I got to thinking that when she's a little older, I don't know what to turn to as a guide for being a good woman. What shall I read her as an equivalent?
ReplyDeleteYou don't think "If" would speak to her?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHmm, yes and no. Not in the same way as to my son. I watch the boys and girls in 6th grade (where my son is now) and they are different- the ways they succeed, the ways they hurt each other, the ways they show concern for others. It's not that they don't have universal similarities too, of course they do, but to me, "If" gets right to the heart of what a man wants to be- should strive to be, in a way that I don't imagine it would to a girl (generalizing, of course). Reading it again, yes, much of it serves as just as sound advice to a female as to male, but perhaps it's the phrasing, perhaps the 'tone' of Kipling himself. Or maybe I'm just an old fashioned sexist who doesn't get women ;)
ReplyDeleteWell, the 'doesn't get women' part is true!
It's always spoken to me; I can't imagine why it wouldn't--except for the slightly jarring note at the end. "Wait a minute: if I do all these good things, won't I still be a woman?" But of course I'm used to having to read "man" as "adult human."
ReplyDeleteLook at it again. Is there really any advice in there that wouldn't be excellent for a woman?