I wonder how that will go?
The dwarfs... teach the princess to believe in herself in a Rocky-esque training montage of swordplay and thuggery. When Snow must face the Queen in the dark woods for their ultimate battle sequence, she says to Prince Alcott, a handsome nothing played by Armie Hammer (a Romney son would have worked just as well), "I've read so many stories where the prince saves the princess. I think it's time we change that ending. This is my fight."
How unexpected. I'm sure audiences will be stunned.
Sounds like one I'll be staying home from, unless the movie is much, much better than the review.
ReplyDeleteI always thought that the point of Snow White (and tales from that 'family') was that 1) some people are just evil and that 2) sometimes a little healthy suspicion is in order. Early exposure to "Snow White" may also explain why I prefer cooked apples to raw . . .
LittleRed1
How modern and liberated. And fearless. And original. I think the book on politically correct fairy tales was done 20 years ago, and it was a theater staple twenty years before that.
ReplyDeleteSo up-to-date. And brave - did I mention brave?
Even Disney has been in on it for years. The last six Disney Princesses have all been Spunky Gals.
Um... Yeah... I think we'll wait for video. If then. Thanks for the warning!
ReplyDeleteWilliam sends.
OK, I'll rise to the bait :p
ReplyDeleteThe article you linked points out that the Snow White we all know and love bears little or no resemblance to Grimm's original gory tale. So that was a BIG departure from the "true" story. But that doesn't bother you because you like the narrative (helpless girl waits for big strong man to save her).
I get it :)
Now we have another inaccurate remake of an inaccurate remake where [gasp!] the heroine fights her own battles with help from seven dwarves. How dare she! Even if she needed 7 guys to help her! And how dare anyone suggest that one female might be able to best another female in combat!
We all know that would never happen, even in a movie with poisoned apples and magic mirrors. But letting a girl solve her own problems is - apparently - a bridge too far :p There are limits to what we're willing to believe, apparently.
Kind of puts you frequent argument that women should learn to defend themselves in a different light.
Next we'll see a forensics/cop show that features the startling twist of a serial killer.
ReplyDeleteLike Cass, I'm not averse to drama in which the women are human beings instead of lay figures on which the real people can practice their rescue skills. But this particular trend of re-imagining fairy tales is wearing a bit thin.
It's strange, though. I object to it only because it's no longer fresh, not because it does violence to the tale. In contrast, it gets right up my nose when someone ruins a great Jane Austen story with anachronistic "deep thoughts" about marriage.
I definitely agree about remakes with an agenda.
ReplyDeleteNeither of these remakes struck me as something I'd want to watch. But when you think about most fables and fairy tales, they have an agenda/message too: good wins out over evil. Sloth is defeated by industry, etc.
I get offended when Hollywood rewrites things so Evil is glorified. So had Grim chosen to link to the part of the Atlantic article about making the evil Queen sympathetic, he and I would have been in violent agreement.
Fairy tales and stories get remade all the time - that's nothing new, nor is it objectionable. I don't have a problem with someone saying, "Let's take this familiar tale and say, 'What if it had ended this way'"? To me, that's not problematic.
So hear we have someone saying, "Gee - what if (for once) we take a tale about a girl who was persecuted by a vain, narcissistic evil stepmother (negative female stereotype), got taken in by benevolent dwarves, and was rescued by a handsome prince and changed the ending so that she takes a more active role in solving her own problems - and marries the handsome prince anyway?"
What I'm asking is, why does this bother anyone? Or are you just saying that no one should ever remake old stories? And in that case, why is it wrong to do so?
It's strange, though. I object to it only because it's no longer fresh, not because it does violence to the tale.
ReplyDeleteWhy does it have to be fresh, though?
I Googled the Grimm's version and in that version the prince doesn't wake her with a kiss. The dwarves are carrying her glass coffin and drop it, and the poisoned apple tumbles out of her mouth on its own.
So Disney did some reinventing to make the story fit their own agenda: helpless pretty girl rescued by handsome strong prince. If that narrative is not objectionable (even though it is repeated over and over for decades) why is it a problem to show females actually trying to solve their own problems - with help from men, mind you! - instead of wringing their hands passively and doing nothing?
I suspect this has to do with a human longing to feel needed. The odd thing to me is that Snow White still wants the prince. She isn't rejecting him - she just wants to take as much responsibility as she can for solving her own problems.
One might be forgiven for suggesting that that's a *good* thing :)
Yah, I too am the sort that hates it when anyone diddles with a good story. Make that what *I* consider to be a good story. Hey! My opinion matters, at least to me =;^}.
ReplyDelete"she just wants to take as much responsibility as she can for solving her own problems. "
I've no problem with that notion.
Walkin' Boss and I spent several years drilling DIY & personal responsibility values into our chillun's heads. Chillun who just happen to be young ladies.
For me, it's inconsistencies and improbabilities, within the context of the story of course, that derail my attention span and/or patience. Time remaining on the clock becoming more precious as one ages and all that, eh what?
For me, it's inconsistencies and improbabilities, within the context of the story of course, that derail my attention span and/or patience.
ReplyDeleteThat's the sort of thing that tends to annoy me too, bthun. It's just that there are lots and lots of inconsistencies and improbabilities in the male hero stereotype. How often have we seen a single guy beat up 5-7 armed attackers? It's even weirder when the male hero has little/no previous experience with weapons or combat.
But somehow that doesn't seem to strike people as inconsistent, probably because the meme has been repeated over and over and over again: no experience with fighting? Well, even an ordinary guy can best Ninja masters armed with only a paper clip and an empty Starbucks cup!!!
The point I'd like to (gently) suggest here is that just as men are annoyed with some of the male stereotypes (Dad as bumbling idiot whose kids and wife mock him b/c he can't sort laundry or find anything) in popular culture, so women have been annoyed for years by equally annoying stereotypes wrt women (the idiot woman whose reaction to any threat is to dissolve in a puddle of tears or who stands by helplessly as her prince fights the evil bad guy who cheats, or the nagging shrew whose husband just ignores or lies to her).
I spent most of my childhood screaming "For Pete's sake, woman, pick up the 2x4 and hit the bad guy on the head. DO SOMETHING!"
I think that what strikes us as annoying/improbable/etc. depends on our background and experiences. My husband notices every.single.disrespectful.male.stereotype on TV because they offend his pride and his amour propre. And yet there are men like that out there in the world :p
He takes the ubiquity of strong male heroes for granted - doesn't even notice them b/c that's how he thinks of good men.
I have to point out the many negative female stereotypes (nagging, stupid wife; stupid, slutty bimbo; strident ugly man-hating feminist) to him. And yet there are women like that in the world.
I'm reading Jonathan Haidt's newest book, and he spends a lot of time talking about how our whole reasoning process is oriented around defending and rationalizing our pre-existing points of view. Men and women are equally prone to this, IMO.
I've frequently lampooned the notion that women are inherently more noble or virtuous than men, for instance. You can get there only by cherry picking the evidence. What I wish I would see more often is guys questioning some of the tropes women have rolled their eyes at for decades :p
Cass said...
ReplyDelete<snip>
11:30 AM
Not a thing in there with which I could argue.
Funny what a strong wife and two daughters can and will do to an old Neanderthal. =;^}
Hey, it's not like some women don't have a lot of goofy ideas about men. Most are pretty self serving. One that particularly annoys me is the "*sigh* He's helpless/hopeless without me".
ReplyDeleteReally? The guy who designs bridges during the day is secretly a bumbling idiot? However does he get through the work day without you there to fix everything for him?
Or the "men are like little children/boys will be boys" meme, which to me is just insufferably patronizing. Under the right circumstances any adult can act childish... but that's a far cry from being a child or being incapable of self discipline/self restraint.
One of the first things I noticed shortly after being married was that often when you see couples living out exaggerated stereotypes (incompetent/forgetful husband, super conscientious/controlling wife, or the opposite: ditzy bimbo/patronizing, controlling husband) there's more than a bit of role playing going on on both sides.
It takes two: one to play clueless/helpless and one to play The Long Suffering Grownup. It took me a little while to learn to look at my own motivations when my husband was doing something that really bugged me. Often I found that I could change the dynamic simply by changing my own reactions and behavior.
"Often I found that I could change the dynamic simply by changing my own reactions and behavior."
ReplyDeleteI learned that one from dad when I was but a knee-high... Danged rascal, I never could pinpoint the location of his buttons, much less push 'em.
Now mom, being the redheaded Irish lass that she was
*stereotype alert* *stereotype alert*
was one big tempestuous button. There was a lot of Red Will Danaher's little sister Mary in me mum.
A wee lad can learn a lot growing up in such an environment. Especially with brothers and a sister who are many years older as coaches.
Probably explains why I roll my eyes with such ease, and so often. =8^}
As Jerry Clower says, if I'm lyin', I'm dyin'.
Heh. My mother in law is a tempestous green eyed brunette who used to go up like the 4th of July from time to time.
ReplyDeleteAfter my father in law died, she eventually remarried. I could watch her husband handle her all day. He knows just how to take her in stride, and because he doesn't overreact (but doesn't stonewall or ignore her either) they really get along well.
I don't know that I'd do as well in his place. Smart like a fox, he is :)
I was just considering cranking up the pressure washer for a little Sunday afternoon R&R --actually I was perusing the Rolodex-o-excuses for not pressure washing the back deck-- when the exclaimation Cass shared, "For Pete's sake, woman, pick up the 2x4 and hit the bad guy on the head. DO SOMETHING!", caused me to think of the helpless female victim stereotype I find most irritating. So I have to ask the following question.
ReplyDeleteWhy will a woman (character on celluloid) who while walking can place every single sub-assembly in a state of amazing harmonic motion, all while atop ≥3" heels, inevitably trip and fall when attempting to flee peril?
"He knows just how to take her in stride"...
ReplyDeleteThat was my dad. I've always admitted, he was a better man than I, Gunga Din.
But letting a girl solve her own problems is - apparently - a bridge too far....
ReplyDeleteI'd be perfectly happy with a remake of Snow White that had Our Heroine, to quote Teal'c, do combat in a pool of jello with the Evil One, working out her own issues while I sit on the side lines watching.
It's just that there are lots and lots of inconsistencies and improbabilities....
Like a Quaker wife, who's already left her husband over a violence question, returning to shoot someone in the back to save her husband.
Sometimes, though, people behave as inconsistently as our stories do.
Eric Hines
I've always been interested in the polarization process between husband and wife. Maggie Scarf wrote several good books about it. She argues that polarized couples have struck a bargain in which each adopts an exaggerated version of a trait that threatens the other in himself/herself. So one partner plays the irrepressible intuitive ditz while the other is the super-controlled rational one. They'd both be better off if the ditz took responsibility for his/her self-control while the robot acknowledged a need for some spontaneity and warmth. More generally, they'd both be better off if they resolved their ambivalence within themselves instead of projecting the scary trait onto the other and quarreling with it there.
ReplyDeleteI'd be perfectly happy with a remake of Snow White that had Our Heroine, to quote Teal'c, do combat in a pool of jello with the Evil One, working out her own issues while I sit on the side lines watching.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure I will go to the Bad Place, but that made me laugh out loud :p
But that doesn't bother you because you like the narrative (helpless girl waits for big strong man to save her).
ReplyDeleteI get it :)
Actually, that's not the issue at all. In the traditional myth Snow White is a child -- seven years old. She is at the mercy of a powerful woman who is jealous of her, and sets out to destroy her for no fault of her own. What should she do about that?
This is a problem that is going to come up from time to time. Young girls do need advice about this. What's to be done?
The traditional story teaches that most people will see through the powerful woman's jealousy, and even if they can do only a little to help, they will tend to find a way to help that little. The girl's response is to live patiently and with virtue, in a way that wins friends and honor. In time, the wickedness of the jealous woman catches up to her (as in general it does) and the girl's virtue is rewarded.
That's a pretty good lesson! It's one of the ways in which these fairy tales manage to convey powerful moral lessons, and show even young children that they are also moral actors whose deeds and virtues will be taken seriously.
The new story teaches that the proper response is to hone one's ninja skills, and then challenge the jealous woman to a battle royale.
The moral lesson has been completely lost. It's been traded for a chance to have another tired exhibition of girl-on-girl fighting; but the moral was the point. What does this teach? What if the evil queen wins -- is she vindicated by victory too? As with the Brave movie, what if the young man showed up who could really outshoot the princess? Is she to surrender herself to the man who bested her in battle?
The problem isn't that Hollywood is doing something "transgressive" against traditional values. The problem is that they've forgotten what the traditional values ever were. They mean to replace one moral with another, but the result is just amoral: it is empty of everything that was meaningful, and powerful, about the original.
In the traditional myth Snow White is a child -- seven years old. She is at the mercy of a powerful woman who is jealous of her, and sets out to destroy her for no fault of her own. What should she do about that?
ReplyDeleteApparently, nothing :p
FWIW, I had never heard this version. I have no idea whether others have or not.
There are about a gazillion variations on this story. You seem to have fixed on the one you know, but there are many others out there.
If the problem you have is that they departed from one of the variants (perhaps it is the original, perhaps not) then it would seem that is something shared by every other version I've read or seen enacted. In any event, that doesn't come across from your post. What came across was that you were commenting on her wanting to fight her own battles and solve her own problems.
The problem isn't so much variation -- there are always variations in traditional stories -- but the loss of the core.
ReplyDeleteThe Prince, you'll notice, really is disposable in this story. This isn't a story about him: it's about Snow White. He can play the central role Disney assigns to him, or a more minor role, or he could simply be left out: the dwarves could drop the coffin and knock out the apple, and the law could apply the penalty (assuming the Queen were subject to the law, which the story could arrange).
This is really a coming of age story for young girls, who are being taught to deal with (also female) bullies. It's exactly the advice we do give to young girls who are dealing with jealous female bullies: try to ignore them, make friends where you can, keep cheerful with your own business, live virtuously. In time, you'll find that mean people get their own reward, and you'll find the happiness that attends to virtue and true friendship.
. It's exactly the advice we do give to young girls who are dealing with jealous female bullies: try to ignore them, make friends where you can, keep cheerful with your own business, live virtuously. In time, you'll find that mean people get their own reward, and you'll find the happiness that attends to virtue and true friendship.
ReplyDeleteAnd is this is the advice you'd give to a young man in the same position?
What if the person is trying to kill you?
The issue of bullying for boys is always physical intimidation; a response requires a physical component. Nevertheless, I think the advice I did give was something along the lines of "Try to ignore them; if they realize you aren't bothered, they'll lose interest and go away." Of course, in my case I was dealing with someone who didn't need any encouragement to stand up for himself physically; I was less concerned about him being bullied, and more concerned about having to defend him from assault charges.
ReplyDeleteNow, in terms of myths and fairy tales, we shouldn't expect a coming-of-age story for a boy to be very similar to a coming-of-age story for a girl. This is just the point at which the experience of sex-dependent hormones begin to rise to their great concentrations; and these are consciousness-altering hormones. That is to say, boys and girls live in very different worlds; their experience of reality is very much different (moreso, given this difference in concentrated hormones, than is the difference between men and womens' experience of reality, which you and I have discovered through many years of discussions is nevertheless quite great!).
Indeed, we'd be likely to be disappointed if we expected a coming-of-age story for a girl to resemble that for a boy. The moral in the girl's story typically would be that she should submit patiently to abuse in the hope that eventually many people would notice and admire her passive virtue (and phenomenal physical beauty).
ReplyDeleteI agree with Grim that it's not a great idea to reform such a story so that our heroine gets into fisticuffs with her wicked stepmother. On the other hand, that's not the storyline I'd expect with a young male protagonist, either. Most likely, in either a traditional or a modern tale, he'd run away from home and do something entertaining to make his fortune. He absolutely wouldn't sit around until someone rescued him; no one would bother reading such a story. There's a good chance he'd rescue some chickie who was more or less paralyzed under an evil influence.
Running away from home -- or at least from birthright privileges -- is a very common feature of male but not female coming of age stories, now that you mention it. My personal favorite is Sir Gareth, who is the son of King Lot of Orkney (and thus a brother to Sir Gawain); but who comes to Camelot hiding his identity, so that he can serve humbly in the kitchens for a year.
ReplyDeleteThere he also submits patiently to abuse (especially from Sir Kay) for the whole year of his commitment; during which time he impresses everyone with eyes to see of his virtue and personal excellence. Thus when he asks to be knighted at the end of the year, neither King Arthur nor Lancelot object, but rather are glad to give him what they have come to see as his due.
He takes on a quest after that which involves rescuing a damsel in distress -- but his companion in this quest is her sister, who doesn't like him one bit and is quite vocal with her disdain (and who is also one of the more entertaining characters in Malory's quite entertaining work).
Gareth eventually rescues the damsel, having fought many knights to do so; then, riding to the castle in which she is held, he finds her pulling up the drawbridge! She tells him that, gratitude aside, she can't accept the love of a nameless man, and he is to go adventure for a year or so to prove himself before she'll consider him.