tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post4855412703330449194..comments2024-03-28T16:58:17.705-04:00Comments on Grim's Hall: Reforming Police TrainingGrimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-33288696781892031182021-04-19T12:23:47.310-04:002021-04-19T12:23:47.310-04:00Side-note.....the maker of Tasers is now advertisi...Side-note.....the maker of Tasers is now advertising it as a self-defense weapon 'less lethal than a gun, more effective than bear-spray.'<br /><br />One wonders if his sales to police are descending by virtue of Taser's not-reliable stopping power.Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-6668418194851189722021-04-17T01:13:05.700-04:002021-04-17T01:13:05.700-04:00"But again, how many police are killed? Not m...<i>"But again, how many police are killed? Not many! 126 out of 1.1 million, or 0.011%."</i><br />That's one in about 9000. Not overwhelming, but not small enough to be considered rare. I don't know if there are enough men and women of honor and fortitude enough, under that risk, to serve as police who are willing to do it, and you'd expect the number killed to increase slightly with the changes you propose (perhaps).<br />Tough call.<br /><br />The debate about use of force, and sticks vs tasers- the problem is the public at large doesn't have the stomach to support the use of sticks as weapons of submission now that, theoretically, you can taser someone and put them down almost as if by magic- again, theoretically- but most people live in theoretical space most of the time when it comes to policing and crime.<br />Certainly, it's unlikely that people are going to support making police better fighters even though people like we here understand that it would *reduce* the problems incurred in use of force scenarios.<br /><br />Basically, so long as the public has no clue about how policing really is, they aren't going to support the kinds of changes that are really necessary.<br /><br />I have no idea what to even suggest to try to fix it.douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03241790925053112959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-31100724410060534962021-04-15T14:57:31.080-04:002021-04-15T14:57:31.080-04:00...if you eliminate tasers and gas you would effec...<i>...if you eliminate tasers and gas you would effectively eliminate (biologically) female patrol officers.</i><br /><br />Over the last little while I've come around to Tex's view that it's not important to have women <i>per se</i> in police, the military, or sports: some women can hang, and they belong. Others can't, and don't. <br /><br />That said, I studied Escrima a bit in the Philippines, and have used sticks in both Western (HEMA) and Eastern martial arts. A woman with a stick who knows how to use it is not necessarily at a big disadvantage. It requires a lot of training, to be sure. But it does work, and better than tasers. <br /><br />Mike:<br /><br /><i>Do they still teach hand to hand combat anymore...?</i><br /><br />I don't know. I do know that my uncle, who was Air Force Security Police in the 1950s, received a much higher degree of training on those matters than current service personnel do today. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-13024263110690430092021-04-15T12:58:07.855-04:002021-04-15T12:58:07.855-04:00It seems to me like maybe the training now is less...It seems to me like maybe the training now is less than what it was back in the 60's and 70's. Do they still teach hand to hand combat anymore where officers are taught the basics of how and when to use the night stick or baton? How to defend themselves and restrain an unarmed combative subject?<br /><br />One of my Uncle's was a cop in a large city in the mid sixties. If memory serves, his academy training lasted about six months, plus he already had to have a bachelor's degree in a closely related subject.<br /><br />Amusing story...he was the first cop to ever pull me over after I got my license. I hadn't done anything wrong, he just wanted to give me a couple of tips on what to do if pulled over.Mike Guentherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13760305520055214986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-28419491182291790942021-04-15T12:41:37.267-04:002021-04-15T12:41:37.267-04:00I suspect that if you eliminate tasers and gas you...I suspect that if you eliminate tasers and gas you would effectively eliminate (biologically) female patrol officers. While stand-off distance is a net plus for male officers, not going close-quarters with suspects having significantly greater upper body strength and arm reach is vital to keeping female officers from being overpowered.Christopher Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00396671757183163171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-41584482551150768952021-04-15T10:55:18.132-04:002021-04-15T10:55:18.132-04:00I think the equipment section covers this. Tasers ...I think the equipment section covers this. Tasers and gas should be eliminated, and replaced with training to use sticks in close quarters requiring a non lethal solution. Handguns should remain available for cases required lethal force in close quarters. Long arms, especially shotguns, should be available but not ordinarily carried. <br /><br />Nobody said that no force would ever be required. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-3525034165796191852021-04-15T08:15:30.051-04:002021-04-15T08:15:30.051-04:00A few days ago, a black man was shot to death in t...A few days ago, a black man was shot to death in the emergency room of St. Ann's Hospital in Westerville, Ohio, an upscale, white suburb of Columbus. The whole incident was caught on police shoulder cams.<br /><br />The man was found unconscious in a car in a parking lot, and transported to the emergency room by police. Once there, he was identified, and it was found that there were several warrants out for him. The police entered the ER (actually a separate, small examination room) to arrest him, and they discovered he had a gun. There was an wrestling match in the small room between two cops and the man. Repeated tasing had no effect (does it ever?), and the man managed to get off a shot. Subsequently the cops shot him several times.<br /><br />Note that the first action of the black man when arrested was to fight the cops, not to submit. This is the standard procedure for black criminals, male or female, when confronted by arrest--they fight.<br /><br />The discussion above neglects the other side of police encounters, the criminal. What were the cops in Westerville supposed to due? Two of them couldn't physically subdue the man in the confined space; the taser (as usual) didn't work; and he shot a gun.sykes.1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10954672321945289871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-12079139908402647702021-04-14T17:15:14.942-04:002021-04-14T17:15:14.942-04:00It is very difficult to imagine the Rockwell visio...It is very difficult to imagine the Rockwell vision as the norm in many parts of this country; the cops simply don't have the time to engage minor riff-raff in pleasantries. That may have worked when the population largely conformed to 'ordered liberty' (a/k/a the Ten Commandments), but budget restraints and frequency of calls strain most metro-area police agencies.<br /><br />In this area, one has to be 30 miles or so from Downtown Big City to encounter infrequent police calls-for-service--and in those communities, there may be only 1 or 2 active officers on the graveyard shift, with 4-5 on the second shift, and 6 patrolling on first (days have all the brass and clericals who don't count.)<br /><br />Your conceptualization of 'peace' v. 'law enforce' is a good one. The question is how to implement the former in budget-stressed Big Cities were ordered liberty disappeared in 1965 or so.Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.com