tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post3279514827665578949..comments2024-03-18T22:21:01.033-04:00Comments on Grim's Hall: Marine Corps Pugil SticksGrimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-81496474153853627692016-03-21T23:40:50.494-04:002016-03-21T23:40:50.494-04:00The aggression training isn't nearly as necess...The aggression training isn't nearly as necessary. In WWII and pre Vietnam even, citizens had an ingrained habit of not using violence against their fellow patriots and an ingrained social chain preventing them from harming targets.<br /><br />Those social shackles still exist, of course, but it is much less of an issue with modern training that programs a soldier to shoot on demand, irregardless of their feelings for the target.<br /><br />The stick training still has ulterior benefits. It's just that having less than 50% of your unit being capable of firing a weapon in battle at all, vs over 90% is a major difference due to modern training methods. MOstly marksmanship, but strangely enough the H2H stuff is pretty obsolete. The firearms instruction has advanced to produce shooters on demand, but the H2H stuff hasn't quite kept up. Although advanced training makes up for some of it.Ymar Sakarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-84705905665128996992016-03-21T23:34:34.304-04:002016-03-21T23:34:34.304-04:00Don't try to meet force against force, especia...Don't try to meet force against force, especially when you aren't faster, bigger, or stronger than the target.<br /><br />Use 4 ounces of force to deflect 400 pounds of incoming pressure, off to the side.<br /><br />Or just flip them over using a throw, without receiving their charge completely.<br /><br />The US Army couldn't teach women to defend themselves from rapists. I see no reason to believe the rest of the military is capable of making these DC corruptocrat orders work for "gender" evaluation purposes. Besides, the powers that be and DC don't want an effective US military. That's not the End Game.<br /><br /><br /><b> It's the mindset that you're teaching far more than the techniques. If you change the game from 'go out there and crush your enemy' to 'go out there and try to hold your ground, taking shots as they become available,' you've changed the mindset you are inculcating in a substantial way.</b><br /><br />True, which is why the powers that be want the sexes integrated at this scale, to break the US military in a way that Bush II could never have done via blooding the Iraq veterans and improving military combat effectiveness (not on paper).<br /><br />There's no way to tactically combine tank tactics for a M1A1 Abrams main battle tank, with its front armor undamaged and guidance adjusted main cannon, with the Sherman M4 in WWII. The size and speed and mass differences are too great, even if you equalized the technology. Although to adjust a bit, a full on charge by a Panzer unit might work, but if some M4s tried that, they would get slaughtered. So the M4s have to use combined arms, to support the infantry, and not try to take on enemy tanks head on. Cause the M4s are smaller, they pack a smaller punch, they have less mass and armor to sustain the hit.<br /><br /><b>Wasn't the idea that we wouldn't be changing the standards, though?</b><br /><br />They were lying though, meaning the DC corrupt traitors. The people here I suspect actually want to improve US military training, even if that means throwing the old book out. But that's different from the traitors in DC, of course. Intentional sabotage is not due to a mistake via ignorance.<br /><br />If this was a conflict between patriots who want to improve training vs other patriots who disagreed about how to improve training, it wouldn't be a life and death struggle. Since the actual struggle involves traitors, something different is at work.Ymar Sakarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-43719498543590457072016-03-20T13:11:24.774-04:002016-03-20T13:11:24.774-04:00Using the Armed forces as a social studies experim...Using the Armed forces as a social studies experiment is nuts. <br /><br />The people pushing this are either stupid, or deliberately trying to degrade our combat capacity. <br /><br />If you want a "civilian force as strong as the military", there are two ways to go about it.<br /><br /><br /><br /> ravennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-91441997511833339212016-03-19T22:19:08.236-04:002016-03-19T22:19:08.236-04:00Adjusting to different possible encounters in an e...Adjusting to different possible encounters in an evolving world might also be a useful lesson for Marines.<br /><br />But it would not be the same lesson. If this lesson in aggression still needs to be learned, then reworking it runs the risk that it will not be learned.Assistant Village Idiothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01978011985085795099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-3044633666382608552016-03-19T12:24:10.798-04:002016-03-19T12:24:10.798-04:00There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding by som...<br />There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding by some of what they are seeing. Pugil stick training is not about technique or advanced personal combat moves, its about aggression, aggression, aggression. Just like the bayonet course that, thankfully, the Marines continue to have in boot camp, its about teaching modern city boys how to be violent and become a weapon.<br /><br />Boys that grow up not even able to play dodge ball in school, unable to play tag on the playground, and now can't use harsh language without being labelled in some way. Boot Camp begins the process of de-programming the virtual gelding that society produces in young men. Getting their blood pumping, smelling the cold steel of the bayonet, facing an opponent one-on-one and focusing on destroying him, these are the things we NEED in boot camp to produce warriors of out modern urbanites that won't wilt in combat.<br /><br />For the naysayers that will object, I only point to the Marine Navy Cross recipient that beat his Taliban enemy to death with his own LMG after the Marine's weapon went dry. Bloody hand to hand combat happens in war, and every Marine needs to be prepared for it. If females can't handle it, they shouldn't be there.<br /><br />Corporal Wooldridge's story:<br /><br />http://www.businessinsider.com/the-crazy-story-of-cpl-wooldridge-2013-12<br /><br />-Krag<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-64056174952185234172016-03-19T11:20:05.886-04:002016-03-19T11:20:05.886-04:00Grim, I failed to be clear in my earlier response....Grim, I failed to be clear in my earlier response. My apologies.<br /><br />Assuming perhaps 10% of the Marines are female (a naive assumption, used only for illustration): 9 out of 10 of the male's opponents will fight just like he does, from which he will learn. Also 1 out of 10 will <i>of necessity </i> use very different tactics. Against which he still needs aggression, but a very different implementation of that aggression. <br /><br />Likewise, those females are exposed to fighting now, and have been - and, barring an all-male force, will continue to be. They must learn how to deal with it, including what may seem to them like facing a berserker rage. Both sides need to learn because this is the way the world is going - note the YPJ as well as the YPK. Both sets of the Peshmerga, by the way, believe in saving the last bullet for themselves. That is the far more likely type of combat we will face going forward, and we must prepare all our forces for it.<br /><br />As for the cadre - the only thing I can say is that the bout was clearly done, so the male needed to dial it back immediately. Just because it was a grrl should not enter into it. Aggression - absolutely. Controlled aggression - even more so. Leaving it uncontrolled, allowing it to be reveled in, leads to very bad places. <i>How</i> the cadre handled it looks a bit suspect to me, but I haven't been there. You have, and I acknowledge that. <br /><br />My 9 years were a different environment. But I also knew that, if the balloon went up, my last field operation was a Spetznaz target, and as the Ops crew commander and an officer, I would be treated with their field interrogation techniques. So this problem has been growing for at least 35 years. Better we train all members to deal - the women more realistically than against another woman, and the men for the occasional competent different kind of fighter. annleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666381399321975755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-67113685608101960122016-03-19T10:41:13.555-04:002016-03-19T10:41:13.555-04:00Judging by one vid of one encounter, plus the USMC...Judging by one vid of one encounter, plus the USMC's lengthy study, plus the British tri-force longitudinal study, plus my own decades of experience training with both men and women, rather. <br /><br />But it doesn't matter what I think -- the military is going to do this now because the elected officials want them to do it. There will be plenty of examples from which to judge.<br /><br />In the meantime, what I notice immediately is that the reaction of the cadre needs to change. They're on the Marine like we would ordinarily be should a boy really go after and try to hurt a girl. That's not the lesson pugil stick fighting exists to send.<br /><br />Now the response here has been, "Well, change the training so that it's more focused on defense and countering." Wasn't the idea that we wouldn't be changing the standards, though? Integrating women was supposed to be done without altering the way we trained a force that has proven excellent in combat. <br /><br />In fact, the standard has changed just by the presence of the gender-integrated units. If nothing changes with the cadre, the shift has been from "Go out there and crush that guy" to "Go out there and crush that guy, unless it's a woman, in which case don't be too rough with her." You're now training male Marines not for that mindset of aggression, but for a very different mindset of discretion. <br /><br />And you're training the female Marines to think they're readier to encounter this kind of thing in the field than they really are -- a serious problem with martial arts training in general. Very often people think what they've learned in the studio will translate to easy victories in the street. But they've been training with people who are doing what they expect, and in a way that is designed to allow them to practice.<br /><br />So, day one, standards of training have been changed by gender neutrality. I would suggest they have been altered in a way that is fundamentally hostile to the mission of the Marine Corps.<br /><br />But, again, it doesn't matter what I think. We'll be able to judge from the results in the fullness of time. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-48991996843540200282016-03-19T04:06:32.810-04:002016-03-19T04:06:32.810-04:00Judging by one vid of one encounter. Excuse me wh...Judging by one vid of one encounter. Excuse me while I object and suggest that a) there are many a young male recruit who were equally and easily knocked on their asses the first time by the same tactic and b) all recruits then learn from the "demise" of that first and c) there are spme dudes who don't fare any better the second or third time out. Let"s not pretend that an all male force of any branch of the military are all superjocks. Some dudes end up in support units for a reason.Kathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05208095650375780838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-89184358831522947792016-03-18T22:55:37.598-04:002016-03-18T22:55:37.598-04:00That's the point, though. Chontosh used fire ...That's the point, though. Chontosh used fire -- it's the mindset you're training for with the pugil sticks. <br /><br />Or not. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-79237260261132645752016-03-18T22:42:06.070-04:002016-03-18T22:42:06.070-04:00Have to say, an old NCO told us that "If you&...Have to say, an old NCO told us that "If you're in hand to hand, you're wrong". <br /><br />Win by fire. <br /><br />Eric Blairnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-61427564347508438862016-03-18T22:41:47.709-04:002016-03-18T22:41:47.709-04:00Strategy is not tactics, my friend.
When we speak...Strategy is not tactics, my friend.<br /><br />When we speak of pugil sticks, we are talking about training for tactical aggression. You might want to review Brian Chontosh's performance in Iraq. That's the mindset you're no longer training to inculcate. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-43179700587980023982016-03-18T22:31:53.906-04:002016-03-18T22:31:53.906-04:00If you change the game from 'go out there and ...<i>If you change the game from 'go out there and crush your enemy' to 'go out there and try to hold your ground, taking shots as they become available,'</i><br /><br />And therein is a demonstration of your misconstruing.<br /><br />You might want to review Scipio's defeat of Hannibal's elephants and of Hannibal in Africa.<br /><br /><i>That's going to play out in the field, because you do fight as you train.</i><br /><br />Indeed.<br /><br />Eric HinesE Hineshttp://aplebessite.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-83623677791123120002016-03-18T20:15:18.582-04:002016-03-18T20:15:18.582-04:00The E-tool, the bayonet, the Kabar.
I mean, my se...<i>The E-tool, the bayonet, the Kabar.</i><br /><br />I mean, my sense is that this is going to get ugly. Maybe it will be a good learning experience, and people will finally abandon the idea that this is a smart, enlightened thing to do. But I read the jokes in the comments -- many of the people watching the clip on FB are Marines or otherwise -- and I think that what we're really doing is watching our taboo against using physical violence on women evaporating. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-88913915572456228212016-03-18T20:08:24.296-04:002016-03-18T20:08:24.296-04:00I'm not misconstruing anything. I have for ye...I'm not misconstruing anything. I have for years -- decades, I suppose -- studied and taught both Western and Eastern martial arts. <br /><br />The whole point of this particular exercise is training in aggression. It's the mindset that you're teaching far more than the techniques. If you change the game from 'go out there and crush your enemy' to 'go out there and try to hold your ground, taking shots as they become available,' you've changed the mindset you are inculcating in a substantial way.<br /><br />That's going to play out in the field, because you do fight as you train. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-61765907458678838392016-03-18T19:02:43.343-04:002016-03-18T19:02:43.343-04:00What Eric said (perish the thought) - note I said ...What Eric said (perish the thought) - note I said defend <i>and counter</i>. In fact, I'd probably go in as hard as he did, then drop low and a little to the side, swipe at his knees, and pivot to stab (bayonet) his back. <br /><br />If he jumped over my swipe, he might learn something, too.annleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666381399321975755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-67224136454815578402016-03-18T18:53:20.880-04:002016-03-18T18:53:20.880-04:00Until the day before yesterday, we were training t...<i>Until the day before yesterday, we were training them to crush and destroy in close combat. Shifting focus to defense....</i><br /><br />You're misconstruing the relationship between defense and offense and their roles in offensive combat.<br /><br />There's nothing at all defensive about soft-style karate.<br /><br />Eric HinesE Hineshttp://aplebessite.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-88569072679198673202016-03-18T18:48:07.655-04:002016-03-18T18:48:07.655-04:00I hate imagine what this would look like with the ...I hate imagine what this would look like with the favored implements of close combat. The E-tool, the bayonet, the Kabar. <br /><br />ravennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-38023582649743790972016-03-18T18:41:09.551-04:002016-03-18T18:41:09.551-04:00Do you understand that you are suggesting now trai...Do you understand that you are suggesting now training Marines to survive close combat? Until the day before yesterday, we were training them to crush and destroy in close combat. Shifting focus to defense is a substantial change that would have major consequences. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-6214566337494432072016-03-18T17:49:58.759-04:002016-03-18T17:49:58.759-04:00My thought was similar to annlee's - drop low,...My thought was similar to annlee's - drop low, avoid the onslaught, and counter.Fermina Dazahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06220450595691709991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-83053464234854300742016-03-18T17:41:43.115-04:002016-03-18T17:41:43.115-04:00Or teach her to take advantage of her lower center...Or teach her to take advantage of her lower center of mass, avoid and counter. Much like the soft-style Asian martial arts.annleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666381399321975755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-39018568055741188692016-03-18T16:47:40.011-04:002016-03-18T16:47:40.011-04:00I would recommend different training, with emphasi...I would recommend different training, with emphasis on cheating and teamwork.<br /><br />ValerieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com