tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post2372977225043726979..comments2024-03-28T16:58:17.705-04:00Comments on Grim's Hall: Wolf Time, Part IIIGrimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-72096594186769576642017-06-14T19:36:20.355-04:002017-06-14T19:36:20.355-04:00There's some fascinating history there. As alw...There's some fascinating history there. As always, I want to read more about it. Add another thing to the list of topics ...<br /><br />Here, though, Oski/Odin does display supernatural powers in the novel. I hadn't thought of it, but it's possible Oski is possessed by a demon. That would be a fascinating plot twist in a later novel. However, the book seems to imply Odin is both real and supernatural. Fenris, too, to an extent. It seems that both the Norse myths and the Christian faith are both true in the novel.<br /><br />I really should re-read the last couple of chapters so I can be more specific. I'll try to do that tonight or tomorrow.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-20556766537591647322017-06-14T09:23:48.811-04:002017-06-14T09:23:48.811-04:00The Christians of the time didn't treat these ...The Christians of the time didn't treat these beings as non-existent. They assumed that they had to exist, since there were so many stories about them. The question was more about the manner of their existence than the fact of it.<br /><br />The Icelendings follow what was the standard Medieval Christian practice of treating the Norse gods as human beings of great stature who were mistaken for Gods. Odin is said to be a chieftain from Asia (which is offered as the reason his branch of gods are called "Aesir," a sort of folk etymology that is demonstrably wrong but plausible enough if you don't have the demonstration in front of you). <br /><br />Snorri ties their lineage <a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre03.htm" rel="nofollow">to the Trojans</a>, in fact. So there's a straight line, in the way he thought about this, from the Iliad to the Aeneid to the Prose Edda.<br /><br />This is similar to the way they treated the supernatural claims in the Arthurian myths. The Lady of the Lake is not, really, a lady in the ordinary sense. She's a water maid who bestows weapons on the royal in return for worship service, like Freya is. Remember in Malory she says she will grant Excalibur in return for a service to be named later, but her head gets cut off before she can ask for it. That's parallel to the Beowulf story, in which the Mother of Grendel has a fantastic sword that Beowulf takes from her home, and then kills her with before she can strangle him. The magic sword in both cases comes from a lady in a lake; in both cases the hero-king survives because she gets beheaded before she can have her will of him.<br /><br />(And the water maids come for Arthur after all, as it turns out, arriving in a barge at the hour of his death to bear him to an island, Avalon; so too Beowulf, in the end, is put to sea in a boat and vanishes from human knowledge. Parallel, though different.)<br /><br />The other thing that Christian writers do is to work metaphysical beings into Christian metaphysics. Sometimes faerie are taken to be demons, but not usually. In the great period of Medieval literature, 1200 AD and after, they were aware of Aristotle and Greek metaphysics. So often they are said to be daemons rather than demons, spirits of the air, a part of creation that is kind of neutral in something like the way that human beings are. <br /><br />The Church did say that some things didn't exist, like witches. Belief in witches was banned during the Middle Ages, from the 700s until the collapse of church authority in the 1400s (which is when the witch-burning craze began). But they didn't doubt the existence of Odin, or Arthur, or the Lady of the Lake. They just tried to explain them in other ways.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-1707456273785350402017-06-14T08:20:11.945-04:002017-06-14T08:20:11.945-04:00I need to go back and re-read the ending of the bo...I need to go back and re-read the ending of the book. There are some things about the plot resolution w/ Odin and Fenris that I want to think some more about. Maybe I didn't really understand some things there.<br /><br />That said, something else I wanted to bring up about the pagan aspects of the book was that, while there are angels and it seems a pro-Christian book, by including supernatural aspects of pagan belief it seems to adopt the pagan worldview.<br /><br />That is, from the Christian worldview, the Norse gods never existed. When there are Norse gods as well as the Christian God, then, even though the Christian God triumphs, the worldview is that of paganism: there are many gods, some of them are in conflict, one god may defeat another.<br /><br />This of course mirrors history, but then we would be talking about religions rather than gods. Still, it could be seen as metaphorical in a history book: "Christ defeated the Norse gods" would just mean the Norse people converted to Christianity; one religion replaced another.<br /><br />But in "Wolf Time," Odin and Fenris seem real, if imperfectly embodied. Christianity wins, but it wins in pagan terms because its monotheism is denied.<br /><br />I dunno. What do you folks think?Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-52592034449509351592017-06-13T12:13:36.005-04:002017-06-13T12:13:36.005-04:00Well, and even Valhalla was subject to the wheel. ...Well, and even Valhalla was subject to the wheel. That's Odin's concern, in the poem about the death of Erik Bloodaxe: "The grey wolf watches the abode of the gods."Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-60366288663774943862017-06-13T03:38:38.980-04:002017-06-13T03:38:38.980-04:00I suppose Tom's previous mention of 'Earth...I suppose Tom's previous mention of 'Earth Mother' beliefs is different in a critical way- any Earth Mother belief explicitly doesn't see a separation between the physical and the eternal realms- That is a significant difference.douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03241790925053112959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-56718950254378416322017-06-13T03:36:27.912-04:002017-06-13T03:36:27.912-04:00Ah, that's true Grim, Buddhism is ultimately n...Ah, that's true Grim, Buddhism is ultimately nihilistic.<br />I think maybe I was more getting at the fact that I think all religions see the here and now and prescribe propriety for this world, but also see another world beyond this one- be it Olympus, or Valhalla, or Heaven- that is not 'governed by the wheel'. Buddhism does seem to be the exception in some sense with it's nihilistic goal. There are surely others that are less clear on the divisions- Shinto sees a mystical force and the physical and believes they are in the same place, but perhaps could be described as different planes in intersection. regardless, it's interesting that we see the cycles of nature and understand this physical realm in that way, but also see through that something beyond- something eternal- that we have hopes we are a part of in some way when we are no longer part of this physical universe. You mention the Celtic Otherworld, which is likewise a parallel or convergent realm which is seen as eternal and magical. I don't think any religion sees only one side of that coin.douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03241790925053112959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-8862583348286014622017-06-12T14:19:14.130-04:002017-06-12T14:19:14.130-04:00A fair point. (No pun intended!) A fair point. (No pun intended!) Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-26564443315240306562017-06-12T13:50:14.998-04:002017-06-12T13:50:14.998-04:00I might mention that instead of saying Odin's ...I might mention that instead of saying Odin's symbol is the arrow, I'd say it is the spear. Which works in exactly the same way, but he's generally described as carrying a spear, and sacrifices to him were marked with a spear.Lars Walkerhttp://www.brandywinebooks.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-78474163665288387682017-06-12T13:39:33.444-04:002017-06-12T13:39:33.444-04:00Lars, I am definitely bringing my preconceptions t...Lars, I am definitely bringing my preconceptions to this discussion! That's all I have! :-DTomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-1045645370190263172017-06-12T12:53:01.007-04:002017-06-12T12:53:01.007-04:00Douglas:
Isn't it true that while the Eastern...Douglas:<br /><br /><i>Isn't it true that while the Eastern religions do see the circle as primary here in this realm, there is a sense of another realm? For Buddhists I suppose it would be Nirvana...</i><br /><br />Nirvana isn't another realm so much as it is the attainment of oblivion. You can experience it, in theory, here; in practice Buddhists will tell you that they can't know if they have ever attained Nirvana in their meditations, because to attain it would be to enter a state in which knowledge and even experience are impossible. <br /><br />I think that's very different from the Celtic Otherworld, say, where you are born here when you die there and vice versa. In the Buddhist sense, when you die here you are born somewhere else; the only hope is to 'get off the wheel,' so to speak, by eventually not ever being born and having to experience anything ever again. There aren't two worlds in the same way.<br /><br />The Norse version combines those views. The cyclical birth/death/rebirth aspect is what Odin is struggling to stop, but it is present in the world that is to come again after Ragnarok. But there are also different worlds, like the Otherworld, in Asgard or Alfheim, etc. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-46940821940996250992017-06-12T12:47:43.920-04:002017-06-12T12:47:43.920-04:00Snorri's influence cannot be discounted, you&#...Snorri's influence cannot be discounted, you're right. One of the things I like about Grigsby's work is that he looks also at earlier sources like Tacitus, and at archaeological finds as well. The weakness of Grigsby's position is that he's too convinced of his own argument, so he sees proofs for it in everything. On the other hand, it's interesting to think about what he takes to be proofs, some of which are fairly plausible. <br /><br />Even then, though, our major recorded sources for what "the Norse myths" were about come through that filter. I read a history of St. Vladimir that talked about the very different pagan gods he encountered while Christianizing Russia. This was at a time when the Vikings had long been traveling through Russia, so you'd expect to see something familiar; but really, while particular gods have familiar aspects, they're no more similar than Thor and Lugh. <br /><br />I tend to think in terms of broad themes that divine figures tend to fall in on. Odin is doing something different from Hermes or -- as seems a more likely connection to me, in spite of Tacitus' linkage of Odin with Hermes -- Bacchus. But it's also not surprising to see why someone from Rome might look at the description of Woden and say, "Oh, that's their Hermes." Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-87222425500682799542017-06-12T10:35:34.712-04:002017-06-12T10:35:34.712-04:00This is intriguing. Part of the problem is that we...This is intriguing. Part of the problem is that we bring our preconceptions to the question, and you can find evidence for pretty much any position you care to take. Norse mythology was not a monolithic religion with an orthodox body of doctrine, but a varied collection of beliefs, probably quite different from one place to another. And we must always bear in mind that most of what we think we know comes by way of Snorri Sturlusson, a Christian and a literary genius who re-worked the material to make it acceptable to the church. The Eddas tell of a kind of re-birth after Ragnarok, where the world is re-born and the surviving gods create a new order, similar to the old one. Is that a reflection of heathen circularity of thought? Or a result of Christian apocalyptic influences? Who knows? I felt free to extemporize pretty much at my whim.Lars Walkerhttp://www.brandywinebooks.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-34184660279993068172017-06-12T08:09:01.568-04:002017-06-12T08:09:01.568-04:00I'm not questioning whether there were fertili...I'm not questioning whether there were fertility goddesses, but rather the generic "Earth Mother as supreme Goddess" vibe of the speech. I hung out with Wiccans a lot at one time, and this is the way they spoke. I have a hard time imagining Vikings talking like this. Of course, how much theology can you draw out of two paragraphs?<br /><br />Buddhism has a definite sense of progress. The cycle of rebirth isn't eternal. If you live well, your next life will be of a higher order, and eventually you can escape the cycle into Nirvana. In that sense, Buddhism is about breaking the circle, too.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-53236635757697823642017-06-12T04:26:48.299-04:002017-06-12T04:26:48.299-04:00Isn't it true that while the Eastern religions...Isn't it true that while the Eastern religions do see the circle as primary here in this realm, there is a sense of another realm? For Buddhists I suppose it would be Nirvana- which like the eternal realms of Christianity, is neither circular nor linear. The circles are about here an now in this realm, but few belief systems think this is all there is.<br /><br />As for Oski, I go with Tom's suggestion he was saying what he needed to say to persuade in the moment, and that seems consistent with aspects of Odin, does it not? I would think the 'Earth mother' type stuff would be important at some level to any culture that was agrarian.douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03241790925053112959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-86526874050684602922017-06-11T14:57:56.182-04:002017-06-11T14:57:56.182-04:00Wicca is really quite modern, and it's not cle...Wicca is really quite modern, and it's not clear how closely they follow anything ancient (or even how closely they mean to follow it, though they talk about it sometimes). But see Tacitus' <i>Germania</i> for a discussion of Nerthus, the goddess Grigsby takes to be the prototype for the Vanic goddess. Even if you don't follow Grigsby, it's clear that there's a fertility goddess who demands human sacrifice as part of her rites.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-22819319480390889532017-06-11T09:40:05.372-04:002017-06-11T09:40:05.372-04:00I don't have any comment really on the main th...I don't have any comment really on the main thrust of the post, but I did have some questions about the pagan aspects of the book.<br /><br />First, this same passage from the book stood out to me because I didn't think the Vikings were into all that Earth Mother stuff. From what Grim writes, maybe the Vanir were, but when I have read stories of Odin, Thor, Loki, etc., I don't get any of the Gaia worship vibe I see in modern Wicca or other paganism. That said, my reading on this has been pretty limited. Was the Earth Mother a big thing with them?<br /><br />(Of course, Oski may have absorbed this from modern paganism, or he may be using this rhetoric simply to appeal to the pagans he finds at WOW.)<br /><br />Tomnoreply@blogger.com