tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post2040893685407587530..comments2024-03-18T22:21:01.033-04:00Comments on Grim's Hall: Teaching to the TestGrimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-49590870843851973032012-03-26T18:38:17.600-04:002012-03-26T18:38:17.600-04:00Texan99
And that's the other thing I was tryin...Texan99<br /><i>And that's the other thing I was trying to get at. Why in the world are we using tests that aren't aligned with the curriculum? What an incredible waste of time and money. Typical, one might almost say, of a unionized monopoly.</i><br /><br /><br />With the advent of massive testing in the early 1990s, it took low-achieving schools a number of years to realize - if they ever did- that curriculum needed to be aligned with testing objectives. It's not just a matter of practice tests.<br /><br />As I saw this occur in a state with weak teachers' unions, I am not about to say this lack of alignment is typical of a unionized monopoly.<br /><br />It is possible that a unionized monopoly may exacerbate the situation of curriculum not being aligned with testing. I am NOT a fan of powerful teachers' unions. Principals need the power to hire and fire.<br /><br />The advent of BIG TESTING has profound implications on education. <br />1)Curriculum needs to be aligned with test objectives. This takes a lot of work.<br /><br />2) The old model of teacher as playwright is thrown out the door. With testing objectives to meet, where it can take 5-10 hours to plan a given class hour [I have done it, so I know what I am speaking about], the teacher instead becomes the actor delivering the script. The script needs to be worked out collectively- school level, district level, or state level. It is too much for one person.<br /><br /><br />I tend to be more skeptical of standardized testing for verbal and reading skills than for math skills. <br /><br />One reason was my experience with taking the GRE. I was having trouble on a reading section. I then decided to choose the answer with the most verbiage- the answer that most sounded as if a sociologist had written it.<br /><br />That approach apparently worked out fine, because I scored better on the Verbal GRE than I did on the Verbal SAT.<br /><br />I am VERY skeptical about standardized testing for writing. Let me repeat: VERY.Gringonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-64028723252447709242012-03-25T17:53:09.715-04:002012-03-25T17:53:09.715-04:00T99, that was beautiful.
I keep a bath towel by t...T99, that was beautiful.<br /><br />I keep a bath towel by the screen for just such an occasion, though I'll have to check into Bthun's Invisible Glass.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-77537346496544242372012-03-25T12:21:35.811-04:002012-03-25T12:21:35.811-04:00Yes, I could have added: "A unionized monopol...<i>Yes, I could have added: "A unionized monopoly in a commodity whose use is mandated by law, controlled by a distant, centralized power whose operatives are trained in the academic 'science' of pedagogics and fed on ever-increasing tax revenues." "But I was afraid of specking my screen with foam."</i><br /><br />*snort* <br /><br />I use a product called Invisible Glass. It works well to remove foam, spittle, and the occasional particulate matter that's a natural byproduct of an impassioned rant. =;^}<br /><br />Don't ask me how I know...bthunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15789441349826379510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-61093279687096375842012-03-25T11:35:33.523-04:002012-03-25T11:35:33.523-04:00Yes, I could have added: "A unionized monopo...Yes, I could have added: "A unionized monopoly in a commodity whose use is mandated by law, controlled by a distant, centralized power whose operatives are trained in the academic 'science' of pedagogics and fed on ever-increasing tax revenues." But I was afraid of specking my screen with foam.Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-55952805172113680162012-03-25T09:55:55.815-04:002012-03-25T09:55:55.815-04:00Miss Ladybug, thanks for your reply. I also think ...Miss Ladybug, thanks for your reply. I also think tracking can help, and I like the idea of tracking by subject.<br /><br />T99: <i>Why in the world are we using tests that aren't aligned with the curriculum? What an incredible waste of time and money. Typical, one might almost say, of a unionized monopoly.</i><br /><br />Yes, or a federal education program.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-6829979777345646032012-03-25T09:16:09.277-04:002012-03-25T09:16:09.277-04:00"The math teachers installed mini-tests of 5-...<em>"The math teachers installed mini-tests of 5-10 minutes’ duration, to check on achievement of objectives, and re-taught as needed."</em><br /><br />Now, that's exactly what I was trying to get at. I think of a test as something that checks on achievement of objectives, allowing the teachers to re-teach as needed. Why are these mini-tests more effective than the big ones? If we could figure that out, we might figure out how to amend the big ones -- or at least figure out why it works better to split the process up more.<br /><br /><em>"If you are going to teach to the test, you need to make sure the curriculum is aligned with the test."</em><br /><br />And that's the other thing I was trying to get at. Why in the world are we using tests that aren't aligned with the curriculum? What an incredible waste of time and money. Typical, one might almost say, of a unionized monopoly.Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-60755704025157439162012-03-24T18:21:07.727-04:002012-03-24T18:21:07.727-04:00Miss Ladybug has said much of what I was going to ...Miss Ladybug has said much of what I was going to say about “teaching to the test” in a “bad” school. I have worked as both a substitute and regular teacher, in both high achieving and low achieving schools. <br /><br />Unfortunately, the incessant “practice tests” are just as she describes them in many low-performing schools. It’s a waste of time, but that’s what they do. A low-performing school where I had both subbed and later taught improved on the situation- at least in math- after I left. The teachers got together and broke down the objectives. The math teachers installed mini-tests of 5-10 minutes’ duration, to check on achievement of objectives, and re-taught as needed. <br /><br />This approach is much more useful than the incessant “practice tests.” It could not have been done without the teachers as a team working out what to do. It is much too much for an individual teacher. Bear in mind the textbook was useless for the students, so the teachers had to start from scratch. However, it is a LOT of work.<br /><br />A relative of mine was involved in educational testing. He considered it unfortunate that the way the game was structured, teachers often considered educational testing to be their enemy. He wanted educational testing to be used to assist teachers, to not only show them where students had learning deficits, but also to assist teachers in reducing or eliminating those learning deficits. His vision was somewhat similar to what the above school did to improve things.<br /><br />If you are going to teach to the test, you need to make sure the curriculum is aligned with the test, not just do the practice test once or twice a week. <br /><br /> We would like to know that high school graduates can do 6th grade fractions and decimals. <br /><br />Ditto congratulations to Miss Ladybug. The nice thing about substitute teaching is that there is nothing to take home.Gringonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-41080736438116875892012-03-24T14:02:05.715-04:002012-03-24T14:02:05.715-04:00Oh, and thanks, everyone, for the congratulations!...Oh, and thanks, everyone, for the congratulations! We're very excited! We have a date we want, we just need to make sure it will work with the church. It's not until later next summer, so I don't anticipate any conflict at this point.Miss Ladybughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05036711338399907180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-73929270770485932212012-03-24T14:00:26.391-04:002012-03-24T14:00:26.391-04:00Re: standardized tests, you also get people who wi...Re: standardized tests, you also get people who will argue they are biased against minorities in the way they are written...<br /><br />Yes, it would be much easier to reach students when there is buy-in and help from the parents. A elementary teacher in this district has about 20 students in the class. There is just not enough time during the school day to give each child the one-on-one support they may need. They need to practice at home. If parents can't or won't make sure their child is getting that additional practice (no matter the subject), the child will have difficulty succeeding if they are having trouble.<br /><br />Not all kids need the one-on-one support, which is great. But, that leads to another problem. If they aren't challenged, they get bored and can get themselves into trouble.<br /><br />Eliminating discipline problems would go a long way, but in a classroom like the one in which I did my student teaching, even eliminating the discipline issues, there wouldn't have been enough time to give all the students who needed more focused support all the support they required.<br /><br />To that end, I think one thing that could help is "tracking" students by ability. Some say this is bad, because it will bring attention to the fact that little Johnny isn't a good student. Hey, kids know without "tracking" which are the "smart" kids and which are the "dumb" ones... If schools would allow tracking, advanced students could go faster than the norm, average students could go with the norm and below average students would be able to go at a pace at which they would be able to absorb the material and not have the teacher proceed to the next topic until they had mastered the current one. Some kids are better with language arts, some are better at math or science. Track them by subject area, even.<br /><br />One thing, though: the key to everything is being able to read with comprehension. If a child can't read, they can't read the math book instructions or the science chapter or the history/social studies chapter...Miss Ladybughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05036711338399907180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-18441716801988237602012-03-24T13:55:15.070-04:002012-03-24T13:55:15.070-04:00A couple of odds and ends more, and then it's ...A couple of odds and ends more, and then it's off to enjoy this lovely Saturday.<br /><br />I completely support school choice & vouchers. I am concerned that the implementation leaves out the poorest students who need the most help, but maybe if all the better students leave, the public schools can be retooled to address the needs of the weakest students.<br /><br />One logical problem I think T99's original position had was that we wouldn't keep trying if it were hopeless. Lots of people and lots of cultures DO keep trying to do hopeless things, for decades on end. Maybe we are, too. I don't know.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-5967144310336797952012-03-24T10:55:17.842-04:002012-03-24T10:55:17.842-04:00Congratulations, Miss Ladybug!
I'm also inter...Congratulations, Miss Ladybug!<br /><br />I'm also interested in what you think about Russ's question. How much do you think parental buy-in, and parental help, matter to students' success?<br /><br />I think Miss Ladybug's anecdotes are at the crux of the matter.<br /><br />In essence, I would say the pejorative sense of 'teaching to the test' comes from a belief that you cannot have a sensible standardized test that covers all students of a certain grade level. They reject your premise of 'if we had a sensible test'. This is in part because of the limits I noted before; plenty of things that can be measured in other ways cannot be measured by a multiple choice test.<br /><br />ML's two schools also show this: Can we sensibly hold the 3rd graders of both of those schools to the same standards? Many teachers, I think, would say no. If you set a standard that the poorer school can accomplish, it will be ridiculously easy for the richer school (and defeat your purpose of showing they learned something that year), and if you set it for the richer school, it will be impossible for the poorer.<br /><br />'Teaching to the test' means you don't have to know anything about the students you teach; you just teach the material, regardless of the students' abilities, parental support, nutrition level, etc. If your particular set of students are lost, too bad. Just keep going. This seems outright counterproductive to many teachers. For them, sensible standardized testing requires standardized students, which at this point in time is impossible.<br /><br />Anyway, I've been arguing the devil's advocate position. While there are, I believe, big limitations and problems with standardized testing, I do agree that <i>in theory</i> it could work on a statewide basis and that, if it could be demonstrated to work over a period of years in a diverse set of test schools, it would be a good idea to implement.<br /><br />Bthun points out another issue, however; this is all distorted by federal bribery: 'Play our game or you don't get the cash.' I'm not really impressed by the federal government's ability to solve complex social issues and wish it would stick to its constitutional roles (or, at least, its constitutional roles under a more originalist interpretation). I think the federal mandate is why you have curriculum alignment issues; NCLB didn't provide enough time to create and test a set of mutually consistent tests and curricula.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-1029620824307824772012-03-24T10:14:55.374-04:002012-03-24T10:14:55.374-04:00Congrats, Miss L.B.! That's great news!
I fee...Congrats, Miss L.B.! That's great news!<br /><br />I feel your pain, Bthun. I sent my first guess off to the accountant last week and am bracing for the bad news.<br /><br />LittleRed1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-82166641931398009172012-03-23T23:59:55.726-04:002012-03-23T23:59:55.726-04:00You can take the old Neanderthal out of the cave, ...You can take the old Neanderthal out of the cave, but... <br /><br />Miss L.B.,<br /><br />Being so preoccupied and addled by my trip to the Post Office, I neglected to offer my congratulations and best wishes to you and your betrothed. <br /><br />Please accept this old Neanderthals congrats and best wishes.bthunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15789441349826379510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-55353663403954118012012-03-23T21:58:45.433-04:002012-03-23T21:58:45.433-04:00ML,
My congratulations to your finance on his ver...ML,<br /><br />My congratulations to your finance on his very good fortune, as well as his manifest sense.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-65066749597683144522012-03-23T16:19:23.504-04:002012-03-23T16:19:23.504-04:00Miss Ladybug, you said
"There is no one sing...Miss Ladybug, you said <br />"There is no one single answer to fixing the problem. You could be the best teacher in the world, but without the "buy-in from parents and students", you won't be able to reach all your charges."<br /><br />If you could eliminate the discipline problems, would a teacher not be able to reach her charges even without parental buy-in?Russnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-37071699668185751042012-03-23T15:54:50.794-04:002012-03-23T15:54:50.794-04:00Miss LB, what great news!
I hear and agree on the...Miss LB, what great news!<br /><br />I hear and agree on the many problems that can make education very, very difficult for some children and their teachers. But what's the lesson we should draw from that? As I noted in my analogy in the original post, the futility of a task is a good reason not to hold failure against the worker -- but that doesn't make it a good reason to keep funneling money into the effort. If teaching can make a difference at all, then some are going to do it better than others, and we should find out which ones those are.<br /><br />For me the crux of the problem is, what are the kids doing on those "test drill" days? Are they being drilled in how to add 26 to 58? Because if the kids are weak on addition, and that drill takes time away from cooperative-learning-process exercises or all-day sessions in the auditorium chanting self-esteem slogans (I'm not making that one up), so much the better. If, on the other hand, they're being taught the best technique for filling little ovals with black pencil, or how the answer "C" is statistically most likely to be right, then I see the problem.<br /><br />In other words, what in the world do people mean, exactly, by "teaching to the test" in its perjorative sense? If it's a sensible test containing questions about the obvious subject matter for that year, why not teach to it?Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-7615314238082090272012-03-23T15:29:09.941-04:002012-03-23T15:29:09.941-04:00Tex, your last paragraph is spot on IMHO...
Mis...Tex, your last paragraph is spot on IMHO... <br /><br />Miss L.B. Nice to <i>see</i> ya. <br /><br />Your post points out the reality of attempting to apply a one size fits all education to the masses. <br /><br />If the local <i>culture</i> including mom and dad? does not place any value in or priority on a formal education, neither the schools nor the Gub'ment can fix the problem. <br /><br />Now I really will hush on this one. I just returned from the Post Office. I sent my final reckoning to Uncle Sam and the State, and mailed the tax preparer his fee. I go to sulk... with beer.=8^}<br /><br />Cheers to all about The Hall.bthunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15789441349826379510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-46876610686684866522012-03-23T14:57:49.391-04:002012-03-23T14:57:49.391-04:00I graduated with my M.Ed. in December 2006. I wor...I graduated with my M.Ed. in December 2006. I worked as a substitute for several years while attempting to land that first teaching job. When the 2010-2011 school year started and I still couldn't get a teaching job, I made the decision to abandon my pursuit of a teaching job in favor of finding employment that offered benefits. My teaching certificate will expire at the end of July. I've left the field without ever truly being in it. I think I would have been an excellent teacher given the chance...<br /><br />Having said this, I have ancedotal observations to make: I was assigned to a school with the highest percentage of low socioeconomic status of any elementary school in the district for my student teaching assignment. The class consisted of black and Hispanic students (there were very few white students at all in the school). When I started my assignment early in that fall semester, the students in my 3rd grade class (the first year in which the NCLB testing is required) were given a practices TAKS test (the standardized tested used by the State of Texas at the time) in reading every Friday morning, starting with one reading passage and the related questions. Wednesday mornings, all 3rd graders were given a group coaching session on testing strategies. By the time I left the student teaching assignment, the entire day each Friday, plus the testing strategies session on Wednesdays, were given over to preparing students to take the TAKS test. I only ever saw one parent volunteering. There were some wonderful, conscientious students in that class. There were also 5 or 6 real troublemakers. Classroom management was the real challenge in that environment. It's hard to teach when you spend a lot of time just trying to maintain order in the classroom. It's also sad when you look at kids that are 8-9 years old and wonder if they will even live to see their 18th birthday (yeah, gang membership was likely a future for a lot of these kids, sadly).<br /><br />Once I graduated and got on substiute teaching, I was lucky to get regular assignments at an elementary school in one of the more affluent schools in the district. Even as a sub, classroom management was never a problem. Students were only prepped for the TAKS test maybe a month out from the actual exam dates. I saw lots of parents (mostly moms) at the school all the time.<br /><br />The difference, in my opinion? At the one school, parents are uninvolved (for a multitude of reasons - one girl came to the parent-teacher conference in order to translate for her mother; she was a good student, but her non-English speaking parents were not uncommon at that school) in the education of their children and do not instill in their children the importance of learning and respect for adults. At the other, parents expect their children to apply themselves to their school work and to behave appropriately towards others (classmates & staff alike).<br /><br />There is no one single answer to fixing the problem. You could be the best teacher in the world, but without the "buy-in from parents and students", you won't be able to reach all your charges. Conversely, I also think you could be a bad teacher, and if you have involved parents and motivated students, they will succeed in spite of poor instruction. If I am lucky enough to have children when I am married (yes, Miss Ladybug is engaged to be married!), I have told my fiancé I will seriously consider homeschooling...Miss Ladybughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05036711338399907180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-55945181603345873092012-03-23T14:47:13.054-04:002012-03-23T14:47:13.054-04:00My parents were both teachers, too -- private in m...My parents were both teachers, too -- private in my father's case and public in my mother's. There never seemed to be that much of an issue about whether it was possible to administer a test that gave a useful measure of whether the students had mastered the curriculum. My father's students were mad that he didn't grade on a curve, but they at least agreed that the test results accurately reflected whether they'd learned the material. Was my father a good teacher? Some kinds of students thought so. One of his students went on to win a Nobel prize in the same subject. My father would have been a bad choice for students with average ability and average interest in his subject. When he tried to teach freshman Chem, even to kids at a competitive university, it usually wasn't pretty. He was popular with the Chemistry nuts who wanted to take upper-level seminars. He knew exactly how to find out whether they were absorbing the subject: give them problems to work and see if they could get the answers.<br /><br />My mother's kids were almost shockingly illiterate, barely able to spell or compose a sentence. I don't know whether she was a good teacher or not. She taught eighth grade history to kids in disastrous schools who hadn't much interest in education. I think it's likely she had no particular gift for reaching disadvantaged students. She just carried on in the traditional way she'd been raised with. I used to grade some of her test papers. Some of the kids were taking in some of the very basic factual information, while others were not. Few, apparently, were in danger of being bitten by the history bug.<br /><br />Parents who are interested in this kind of thing can tell very well whether their kids are learning, by going over their homework with them and generally being involved. One solution, of course, therefore, is to leave the evaluation of the education process entirely in the hands of the parents, via vouchers. But if the judgment is not to be left to the parents, and since the teachers' supervisors don't have time to conduct personalized, in-depth, daily interviews with each child, they're going to have to use some more standardized variety of test. Otherwise, we'll just keep arguing over which new flavor of educational theory is best, without ever checking it against concrete results. And we won't have any more sensible method of setting teachers' salaries than seniority or unionized lobbying.Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-47099127008192575132012-03-23T13:48:50.538-04:002012-03-23T13:48:50.538-04:00"If the test addresses arithmetic skills, and...<i>"If the test addresses arithmetic skills, and the kids don't have arithmetic skills, what's wrong with teaching to the test?"</i><br /><br />As a means to teach basic arithmetic skills, nothing. <br /><br />As a means to drill the kids on the questions/answers that will appear on the test with the end result being the kids pass the test, the educators get their funding dollars, but the kids still can't make change at a burger joint? <br /><br />Involved parents should be able to determine if the motivation of the teacher is the former or the latter along with whether or not their child is making progress, and then act on that assessment. <br /><br />IMHO, the public perception of the <i>teaching to the test</i> phrase is now firmly associated with the latter.<br /><br />My 2½¢. I'll hush now.bthunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15789441349826379510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-73197722536570355002012-03-23T13:42:11.946-04:002012-03-23T13:42:11.946-04:00I agree with both suggestions, Tex. I've been...I agree with both suggestions, Tex. I've been offering my <i>argumentum ad maternum</i> just because I figure her perspective ought to be represented. She and I rarely agree on anything; but I find that she's usually worth listening to, even if you rarely do what she says.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-9389925874505788862012-03-23T12:44:00.269-04:002012-03-23T12:44:00.269-04:00Grim -- the gnashing of teeth over how the tests l...Grim -- the gnashing of teeth over how the tests lead to cheating is all about principals and teachers who cheat, because their salaries depend on the test results. It's hard to believe the kids are motivated enough to cheat on their own, and anyway, how hard can it be to monitor that problem? It's the corruption of the educators themselves that's worrying people. Though frankly I don't see it. What's the problem? Fire their butts. Better still, give the parents vouchers they can use at private schools, if no one can find public school teachers who won't cheat.Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-65105804384700335142012-03-23T12:40:24.991-04:002012-03-23T12:40:24.991-04:00But here's what I don't understand. If th...But here's what I don't understand. If the test addresses arithmetic skills, and the kids don't have arithmetic skills, what's wrong with teaching to the test?<br /><br />I get it that if the test teaches boring facts like the name of Chester K. Arthur's dog, then teaching to the test won't produce kids with historical education that we value. So the test can't be a stupid one. But what's supposed to be wrong with the basic math tests? Or the basic reading comprehension ones? At least for kids who are still demonstrably struggling with these rock-bottom basics?Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-21501367800788235992012-03-23T10:52:40.738-04:002012-03-23T10:52:40.738-04:00Texan, at the public school system in my home town...Texan, at the public school system in my home town, it has reached the point that basic literacy and numeracy (adding and multiplying) are questionable at the 11th grade level! Calculus and interpreting novels are pipe dreams for 99% of the students. Until the students can read and write well enough to understand the questions on the test, teaching towards the test won't help.<br /><br />My $.02 is have tests for things like math and reading comprehension, but not for history, geography and more reasoning-based skills. Or do like some colleges, and have a "capstone course" where students pull together their different skills for a graduation project, tailored to the type of student (college bound, business-bound, vocational).<br /><br />LittleRed1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-55029361163114003922012-03-23T10:27:57.589-04:002012-03-23T10:27:57.589-04:00"One of the links in the post is to an articl...<i>"One of the links in the post is to an article about how the test guarantees a cheating scandal."</i><br /><br />BUSTED! I cheated. I did not read the linked material. =8^{<br /><br />*surrenders NCLB[1] funds, dons pointy cap, and heads to back corner of barn*<br /><br />1. No Curmudgeon Left Behindbthunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15789441349826379510noreply@blogger.com