She’s actually
completely right about this. We can’t allow a secret police to exist unchallenged. The fact that it doesn’t target us as ordinary citizens doesn’t change the fact that these are masked “police” acting without warrants or identification. This is a real problem, regardless of who is in charge. Let it go now, and imagine how much worse it will be when it’s someone else’s charge.
No, ICE isn't a secret police force and it is ridiculous to call them such. Agents are having to wear masks now due to doxing by journalists and Democrat politicians that have lead to death threats against agents and their family members. Masking is a reasonable response to such actions. The criminal neglect of our Southern border by the previous administration requires vigorous enforcement now to correct the imbalance. That is not authoritarian nor is it dictatorial. In fact, it's what the American people voted for, regardless what Rachel Maddow thinks. Furthermore, warrants are generally not required when there is probable cause to believe the suspect is a flight risk, which is the case with an illegal alien. This has been the case long before Trump became president.
ReplyDeleteJoel, you know that I hold you in the highest respect. But if a masked man came to me and attempted to arrest me, with no warrant and without showing his face or giving his name, I'm sure I wouldn't let him. Immediately we would be at the point of dying, because that isn't a thing you can submit to as a free man. You understand that, surely. How could you not? We aren't the sort of men who roll over and let ourselves be placed in chains by nameless, faceless persons who merely claim to be agents of the state.
DeleteI like the meme that shows Mark Cuban as a fully trans Maddow. That's funny, I don't care who you are.
ReplyDeleteHaven't seen that one.
DeleteI saw it when I scrolled down on the link you provided. Plus I had seen it somewhere else, too.
DeleteI understand the concern but then reflect on Elian Gonzales, Ruby Ridge, the Branch Davidian compound, surveillance and arrests of parents at school board meetings, and a search warrant with shot-to-kill authorization on a former President's residence, and it doesn't seem much like the 'someone else in charge' responds to claims that restraint is being exercised.
ReplyDeleteICE agents are not unidentified/unidentifiable when they're on an arrest operation; they have their badges visible, and they're identifiable with ICE designations on their jackets.
ReplyDeleteThey have warrants where warrants are required.
They're masked not only to protect themselves but to protect their families in the face of Progressive-Democrats'--led by no less a light than Hakeem Jeffries--to dox every single one of them. A couple of ICE agent homes already have been swatted.
Your beef regarding warrants is with the law, not the agents or agency.
Your beef regarding the masks is with an out-of-control, no respect for law Progressive-Democratic Party and their politicians.
You know I hold you in the highest respect. But if you resist an ICE agent in the course of his duties, I'll be all out of sympathy.
Eric Hines
There is a proverb in Latin America: "For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law."
DeleteThese aren't our friends. They're the law, which is a power that could be pointed at us just as well as at anyone else. Right now Trump is in charge and everyone seems to feel comfortable. These powers aren't going to go away when he does, though. If this agency's remit is changed so that it's pointed at "disloyal" citizens, as it easily could be given a small change in Presidents, these powers are going to look very different.
If I die resisting such an agent, I'll ask mercy from God alone.
They have badges and agency clearly ID’ed, but the main reason they conceal their name and face is because of doxxing. Many of those they are arresting have ties to Central American gangs who routinely kill police or their families.
ReplyDeleteGrim, ICE isn't using any new or novel authority to conduct their arrests or operations. Consequently, your concern that these "powers" may be used against you when a less sympathetic administration is in office is unfounded. Warrantless arrests for flight risk suspects have already been around for much longer than the last several administrations. There is nothing new here.
ReplyDeleteThis is all new, my friend. Some of it might even be good; but a year ago the border was wide open. There's been a huge change in the scale of the enforcement, the budget assigned to this agency, and the power they are being allowed to wield. I'm not saying it was better last year when everything was wide open, but it is definitely not the same as it was.
DeleteThere is a proverb in Latin America....
ReplyDeleteI don't live in Latin America.
Aside from that, your proverb implies an intrinsic disrespect for law on the part of Latin Americans. Without law, though, all we have is a tyranny of men. As we are seeing in Latin America.
With law, we may still devolve into a tyranny of men, via engagement in lawfare, but that's a much slower devolution with lots of opportunities to correct things.
Eric Hines
Perhaps, but you've seen it yourself; we all have. Obama's first Attorney General was his 'wingman,' aiming at making sure the law was never applied to him; Trump came into office with the law being applied to him. The decision to apply the law to someone is the decision to treat them as an enemy. Once in a while it works out fairly and justly, but it is a decision to use the force of the state against someone.
DeleteThat is the single most dangerous enemy that we all have, the state that governs us. I understand the arguments for permitting it to exist. I do not like to see any of the controls and restrictions that bind it loosened, not even to protect her agents. If you're going to ask people to peacefully surrender to being placed in chains, they have to know for sure who you are; they have to know for sure that there's a process they can trust. Faceless agents are a problem for me; they can't be held responsible for the power they are wielding.
Grim you’re being melodramatic now.
ReplyDeleteAlligator lives matter too
They got to eat.
Buzzards got to eat, same as worms. I've seen the movie. It's a good movie.
DeletePerhaps, but you've seen it yourself....
ReplyDeleteThe one is a perhaps, which may be in progress, but not irreversibly so. The other is a certainty. I'll take my chance on the probability and reject the alternative certainty.
Besides, the agents are not faceless; they are easily identified.
The decision to apply the law is not to treat someone as an enemy, it is to protect the rest of us. Including from the government.
Under our construction, the state does not govern us; We the People are sovereign and use government--subordinate to us--to protect our collective sovereignty and individual liberty. That things are drifting from that is--a longstanding beef of mine--is our own fault. I'm seeing early signs, though, that we're taking corrective action, even if too soon to say that corrective action will continue.
Eric Hines