tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post8919900179698105928..comments2024-03-28T09:56:06.298-04:00Comments on Grim's Hall: On VaccinationsGrimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-39665326775617730082015-02-06T22:12:43.513-05:002015-02-06T22:12:43.513-05:00"Unknown" --
You're making some in..."Unknown" -- <br /><br />You're making some interesting comments, and this is not in any way intended to run you off, but please pick a handle and stick it at the top or bottom of your comments. <br /><br />Here is a link to <a href="http://grimbeorn.blogspot.com/2005/09/comments.html" rel="nofollow">the most recent version of the comments policy</a>, which is nine years old. The original policy has been around for more than ten, I think. It's worked well in keeping the discussions worthwhile. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-54708808289566174872015-02-06T19:54:09.086-05:002015-02-06T19:54:09.086-05:00With any law there is appended as "understood...With any law there is appended as "understood" on the end the statement "..or else we will kick down your door and shoot you if we need to in order to make you comply."<br /><br />While you maye find this shocking, it is indisputable as this is the only tool there is to force compliance. If you disagree, you may ask a certain Mr. Gardner in New York whether he was asked "pretty please: and given sad puppy eyes in order to make him comply on an ordinance against selling loosies.<br /><br />Or more properly, ask his survivors.<br /><br />With that in mind, ask yourself if you are willing to go this far to enforce mandatory vaccination. If you are, that's fine, but this is where mandatory (or forbidden) anything may very well end. <br /><br />Any advocacy of it makes you a part of it.<br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02634939474693617584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-34966887421326897012015-02-05T19:59:25.918-05:002015-02-05T19:59:25.918-05:00At Megan's place they're advocating a mark...At Megan's place they're advocating a marketing blitz featuring free vaccines at Whole Foods, labeled "Free Range All Natural."Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-54914524353172776032015-02-05T19:27:24.569-05:002015-02-05T19:27:24.569-05:00One more clarification: I took Grim's comment ...One more clarification: I took Grim's comment to be a joke, not "rumor spreading". My observation about rumors was aimed at other articles, posts, and comments I've been reading.Cassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-9469116872266260462015-02-05T19:25:41.800-05:002015-02-05T19:25:41.800-05:00I like your suggestion to use the 'good world ...<i>I like your suggestion to use the 'good world citizen' angle to promote immunizations. That would work on some people around here (in L.A.).</i><br /><br />Isn't it weird that people would care more about someone halfway around the world than about people in their own city or town? But there are definitely people like that.<br /><br />*sigh* :pCassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-17445892988522478272015-02-05T19:05:37.379-05:002015-02-05T19:05:37.379-05:00Cass, the big flaw in what you're saying is th...<i>Cass, the big flaw in what you're saying is that no one specified Mexican, and Central and South American illegal immigrants- California especially is full of illegals from all over the world with a heavy concentration of Asian/South Pacific illegal immigrants.</i><br /><br />No one? Then why am I seeing all these references to Central America and kids coming across the southern border? I wrote several posts a few months ago and the articles/posts I cited all were quite clear that they were talking about the wave of kids from central America (they were quite specific, even naming countries). <br /><br />And pretty much every blog post or article I've read today is chock-full of references to Central America and Mexico.<br /><br />I understand the you didn't specify the source - that's a fair point and one I'm happy to agree with. But in the comment right after, Grim said this:<br /><br /><i>I'm pretty sure the counterargument is that we need to let the rest of Latin America come here so we can make sure they get vaccinated. At our county health departments, of course.</i><br /><br />Plenty of folks are spreading this rumor, and have been for a while now. But you're not one of them (at least as far as I know).Cassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-21729538300163717122015-02-05T17:14:53.423-05:002015-02-05T17:14:53.423-05:00There's quite an interesting libertarian/good-...There's quite an interesting libertarian/good-citizen argument going on right now at Megan McArdle's site: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-04/your-right-to-skip-shots-ends-where-my-kid-beginsTexan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-26965448409031678862015-02-05T17:01:45.067-05:002015-02-05T17:01:45.067-05:00Cass, the big flaw in what you're saying is th...Cass, the big flaw in what you're saying is that no one specified Mexican, and Central and South American illegal immigrants- California especially is full of illegals from all over the world with a heavy concentration of Asian/South Pacific illegal immigrants. Also, what Grim said about the Mexican government, who does all they can to prevent backlash against their nationals who are here illegally, as their remittances are as big to the Mexican economy as tourism- to the tune of $8-10 billion/annually. That's pretty good incentive to lie.<br /><br />I like your suggestion to use the 'good world citizen' angle to promote immunizations. That would work on some people around here (in L.A.).douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03241790925053112959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-54324947107953901172015-02-05T14:40:34.450-05:002015-02-05T14:40:34.450-05:00Yeah, the military really gets the whole gamut. I ...Yeah, the military really gets the whole gamut. I remember when we were in 29 Stumps in the late 90s and there was a big to-do over Saddam Hussein that had everyone preparing to go.<br /><br />They ordered anthrax shots for the bn. and people were pretty stirred up about it. Fun times :)Cassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-4206707407824528342015-02-05T14:03:40.353-05:002015-02-05T14:03:40.353-05:00Fair enough. And like I said up top, I've had...Fair enough. And like I said up top, I've had a lot of vaccinations!Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-2076838797016181782015-02-05T13:23:13.990-05:002015-02-05T13:23:13.990-05:00One more interesting (at least to me) thought: wit...One more interesting (at least to me) thought: with global travel, the moral question about whether or not to immunize becomes even more pertinent, because it's not just your fellow students and citizens you're putting at risk: it's potentially people in other countries.<br /><br />Hmmmm.... isn't it progressives who are always lecturing us about being good global citizens? Yet here we have a bunch of privileged Americans behaving with reckless disregard for the potential consequences to those poor kids in 3rd world nations :p<br /><br />That's a bit schadenfreude-y of me, I know, but I just couldn't resist. Cassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-60347109276648561052015-02-05T12:54:38.336-05:002015-02-05T12:54:38.336-05:00I don't know the answer to that question, Grim...I don't know the answer to that question, Grim. And I don't think we should *assume* anything.<br /><br />My point is that people are assuming things on no evidence. For example, I lost count of the number of blog posts I read a few months back about the enterovirus - all claiming (in exactly the same words, and with NO evidence to back it up) that [unspecified] enterovirus had been running wild in Central America.<br /><br />One thing we absolutely CAN look at is where large outbreaks of measles have occurred for the past few years (and perhaps more importantly, where they have not occurred).<br /><br />It might surprise you that Western Europe is one of those places that have had large, repeated outbreaks of measles (France, Italy, Spain). Asia's worse, so's Africa.<br /><br />There has been an exponential decline in measles in North, Central, and South America over the last few decades. That happened because of several sustained, continent-wide campaigns to immunize children and babies. Clearly, *something* interrupted transmission of measles. <br /><br />If what we're concerned with is public health, I don't see how it helps to look everywhere but where the data (so far at least) indicates US measles cases are actually coming from.Cassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-72276319668653108062015-02-05T12:51:22.749-05:002015-02-05T12:51:22.749-05:00Also, here's a sympathetic article.Also, <a href="http://www.clickhole.com/article/embarrassing-us-ranked-182nd-world-alphabetically-1855?utm_campaign=default&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_source=facebook" rel="nofollow">here's a sympathetic article.</a>Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-81121715619612562692015-02-05T12:28:43.902-05:002015-02-05T12:28:43.902-05:00No offense taken.
That doesn't change the fac...No offense taken.<br /><br /><i>That doesn't change the fact that epidemiologists have traced the strains in the current outbreaks back to current, widespread outbreaks in Asia, not Central America.</i><br /><br />That's right, but it's not quite what I thought we were talking about. What I thought we were talking about was that vaccination is most effective when you have the largest number of vaccinated individuals. So even if they aren't in fact the originating source, the presence of large numbers of unvaccinated individuals dilutes the protections of a community that was otherwise mostly vaccinated.<br /><br />I don't think we know what the vaccination rate is among the illegal immigrant population, but clearly they are here because they were among the poorest and least well-served of their home country. If a country like Mexico can't actually vaccinate everyone, these are among those who are most likely to have been missed. <br /><br />Of course they weren't screened for vaccinations when they came (as lawful immigrants are), and of course they manifestly are willing to avoid government rules when convenient (e.g. immigration rules!). <br /><br />So can we safely assume that 99% of them are vaccinated? I'd say we should assume that it's a huge unknown. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-8612716223636648112015-02-05T12:13:51.758-05:002015-02-05T12:13:51.758-05:00Note: I hadn't seen your 12:06 comment before ...Note: I hadn't seen your 12:06 comment before posting the previous one :)<br /><br />Forgive the heat here, but this is a real pet peeve of mine. I'm more than willing to blame Obama where there's actual evidence that he's to blame, but (as with the stupid rumors of a "purge" of officers in the military) we need to be scrupulous about facts.<br /><br />Heck, the Marines were talking about post-war drawdowns and the top heavy senior ranks YEARS ago when my husband was at the Pentagon working on the QDR. It's just nuts to try and tie this stuff to the White House absent any evidence.<br /><br />Nothing wrong with pointing out that - in general - waves of illegal aliens can possibly be a disease vector. Where I get off the bus is when people use studies they obviously didn't even bother to read to "prove" something the studies don't even claim!<br /><br />/rant Cassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-5847491015346725422015-02-05T12:08:33.163-05:002015-02-05T12:08:33.163-05:00OK, we can temporarily ignore the inconvenient fig...OK, we can temporarily ignore the inconvenient figures. That doesn't change the fact that epidemiologists have traced the strains in the current outbreaks back to current, widespread outbreaks in Asia, not Central America.<br /><br />At some point, we have to stop hoping we can blame this on immigration and look at what the actual data is telling us, even if we don't like the answers.<br /><br />When Canada and several of the major outbreak areas in the US have traced the outbreaks to unvaccinated, legal citizens traveling to infected countries in Asia, and when this phenomenon has been going on for several years now, I find myself unwilling to blindly believe people who keep flogging unproven theories (never even trying to find out the facts).<br /><br />Sorry, but that doesn't help anyone. I've already conceded that it *could* have happened that way. But there's no evidence that it actually DID, and considerable evidence that it didn't.Cassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-91146529828640183162015-02-05T12:06:27.501-05:002015-02-05T12:06:27.501-05:00That said, yes of course in principle the facts s...That said, yes of course in principle the facts should matter. I'm only disputing that the Mexican government's figures are plausible enough to count as "facts."Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-31224308767730492932015-02-05T12:02:04.361-05:002015-02-05T12:02:04.361-05:00I have a lot of skepticism about numbers from Lati...I have a lot of skepticism about numbers from Latin American governments (with a few exceptions). Mexico doesn't have full control of its territory thanks to the cartels, and it's so poor that over the last decades it's exported at least ten million people to the United States, but the government claims that it has met the health needs of essentially everyone in the area of vaccinations? Maybe.<br /><br />But <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6878993" rel="nofollow">their record of reporting true figures here is not good</a>.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-61977674293665359812015-02-05T07:47:53.342-05:002015-02-05T07:47:53.342-05:00From Canada, which has also been experiencing outb...From Canada, which has also been experiencing outbreaks of measles:<br /><br /><i>There have been 27 cases of measles in Victoria this year, <b>mostly in travellers returning from the Philippines, Bali, Thailand, India and Sri Lanka.</b><br />...Dr Lester warned health professionals to be on the lookout for patients with a cough, fever or rash, <b>particularly if they had returned from Asia.</b></i><br /><br /><i>"We have had quite a significant increase in the number of cases of measles here, particularly associated with overseas travel," Dr Lester said.</i><br /><br />http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/health-officer-warns-tourists-over-measles-outbreaks-in-asia/story-fni0fit3-1226816994477?nk=6d0c693cbeb97a06d66e03810ed308ae<br /><br />There are plenty of reasons to object to this administration's handing of immigration policy, but so far I've seen precious little actual *evidence* that these illegal immigrants are the source any any of the outbreaks this year, and a TON of evidence to the contrary.<br /><br />I understand the urge to blame Obama for everything. The guy's a freaking disaster as a President. But the facts ought to matter, here. Otherwise, we're just politicizing everything in sight and lose credibility.<br />Cassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-8123832301457081972015-02-05T07:37:59.515-05:002015-02-05T07:37:59.515-05:00I'm pretty sure the counterargument is that we...<i>I'm pretty sure the counterargument is that we need to let the rest of Latin America come here so we can make sure they get vaccinated. At our county health departments, of course. </i><br /><br />Except their vaccination rates are, in most cases, actually higher than ours. Cassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-56376186123714881222015-02-05T07:36:41.673-05:002015-02-05T07:36:41.673-05:00"Of course, it doesn't help that hundreds...<i>"Of course, it doesn't help that hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens, <b>none of which have been vaccinated</b> and have been shown to have various diseases have been allowed in and all over the country. Oh well. "</i><br /><br />Do the facts matter here? <br /><br />The vaccination rates in Mexico and Central America are actually *higher* than they are in the US (for Measles, US = 92%, Mexico and Nicaragua = <b>99%</b>, Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador = 93%). Vaccination rates are <a href="http://www.bbc.com/news/health-24519949" rel="nofollow">pretty much uniformly over 90% in all of North, Central, and South America.</a><br /><br />According to the CDC, the primary source of measles outbreaks in the US has actually been unvaccinated <i>Americans</i> returning from places like Vietnam and the Philippines where vaccination rates are lower than they are here.<br /><br /><i>"The current increase in measles cases is being driven by unvaccinated people, primarily U.S. residents, who got measles in other countries, brought the virus back to the United States and spread to others in communities where many people are not vaccinated," said Dr. Anne Schuchat, assistant surgeon general and director of CDC’s National Center for Immunizations and Respiratory Diseases. "Many of the clusters in the U.S. began following travel to the Philippines where a large outbreak has been occurring since October 2013."</i><br /><br />http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0529-measles.htmlCassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-90895976985563968722015-02-04T22:26:25.612-05:002015-02-04T22:26:25.612-05:00I'm pretty sure the counterargument is that we...I'm pretty sure the counterargument is that we need to let the rest of Latin America come here so we can make sure they get vaccinated. At our county health departments, of course. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-65907789398585282622015-02-04T22:09:53.709-05:002015-02-04T22:09:53.709-05:00"What makes the measles controversy especiall...<i>"What makes the measles controversy especially hard is that dangerous complications from measles are so rare. When it's something like polio, it's a lot easier to get most people to accept the risk/reward ratio."</i><br /><br />Yeah- we're lucky we got a 'test run' with Measles instead of one of the more fearsome diseases.<br /><br /><i>"Of course, it doesn't help that hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens, none of which have been vaccinated and have been shown to have various diseases have been allowed in and all over the country. Oh well. "</i><br />THIS^^^^^<br />But we're not allowed to discuss it, are we... lest we be called racist.douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03241790925053112959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-22970444773068355462015-02-04T21:16:32.547-05:002015-02-04T21:16:32.547-05:00Everybody got vaccinated where I was growing up in...Everybody got vaccinated where I was growing up in the midwest. Nobody got sick from it then. <br /><br />And even then there was a classmate who had contracted polio before he was vaccinated against it. <br /><br />But there were no measles or chickenpox outbreaks although occasional cases would happen. But whooping cough? That was something Grandma talked about happening before WWI. <br /><br />Of course, it doesn't help that hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens, none of which have been vaccinated and have been shown to have various diseases have been allowed in and all over the country. Oh well. Eric Blairnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-85366385627139288532015-02-04T20:34:56.940-05:002015-02-04T20:34:56.940-05:00I think it may also be that taking weight off the ...I think it may also be that taking weight off the institutions weakens them. When you had to go to a church to get help in times of poverty, churches had more influence over mores than they do when the government will cut you a check and you don't have to do anything.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.com