tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post4247111411426138859..comments2024-03-28T09:56:06.298-04:00Comments on Grim's Hall: Gnostic HereticsGrimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-40892448119245597202011-10-08T19:41:47.856-04:002011-10-08T19:41:47.856-04:00The Arian heresy was more powerful because it is a...The Arian heresy was more powerful because it is a highly intuitive reading of Jesus' status. It's not just that it has John 14:28 behind it; it had the entirety of the Greek and Roman pagan traditions behind it as well. What does it mean to say that Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time? That's hard to grasp. What does it mean to say that he is half-god and half-man? It means he had one divine parent (God) and one mortal parent (Mary). That's just like Hercules! We know exactly how to think about that.<br /><br />It's kind of impressive that the Arian heresy was defeated at all. It's the kind of reading you'd expect to take hold, intuitive and fully vested in the extant culture.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-62627280503401906652011-10-08T01:00:40.801-04:002011-10-08T01:00:40.801-04:00I'm way late but here goes...
Gnosticism has...I'm way late but here goes... <br /><br />Gnosticism has been an ongoing heresy since the first century. Although ethnically Catholic, Irish-Italian, I was raised a Christian Scientist. Same for my wife by a remarkable coincidence. Gnostic to the core. The lure of "special wisdom", of vanity, is an ever present danger to we humans. <br /><br />The heresy of Arius was a much more powerful threat than gnosticism. Like gnosticism on steroids it was very popular with Hellenists and the upper classes including Emperor Constantine and his immediate successors.<br /><br />In spite of the powerful political threats wielded against the Church by the Arians the Bishops held fast. The Black Dwarf, St. Athanasius, was the tip of the Catholic spear that philosophically slayed the Arian heretics. Although exiled from his diocese numerous times by Roman Emperors he held the Bishops of the Church together and guided the Council of Nicea to define Catholic orthodoxy. When Arianism was put to the vote it was crushed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-28185481844526223302011-10-03T23:44:06.707-04:002011-10-03T23:44:06.707-04:00Softly, my friend. They were just having fun.
Yo...Softly, my friend. They were just having fun.<br /><br />You've a point to make about the right way to think of these things -- make it. I will be glad to hear what you think myself. It's an interesting phenomenon, and I will be glad of your perspective. This period is yours as much as mine, and indeed more than yours insofar as it touches on Roman things.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-91851553853838368392011-10-03T22:08:39.905-04:002011-10-03T22:08:39.905-04:00And? You are using the snarky comment from Dad29 r...And? You are using the snarky comment from Dad29 remark to draw the wrong conclusion from history. <br /><br />Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02521739006999750126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-91252631976466432902011-10-03T17:07:56.564-04:002011-10-03T17:07:56.564-04:00Grim, Plotinus' work is interesting. I knew th...Grim, Plotinus' work is interesting. I knew the name but not anything about the man before this, I'll have to read more later.<br /><br />It is interesting, though, to see him attack the Gnostics from a Platonic viewpoint.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-5943168092523173222011-10-03T16:29:09.580-04:002011-10-03T16:29:09.580-04:00"But the analogy fails."
No, no, it'..."But the analogy fails."<br /><br />No, no, it's both fitting and proper for the reason I employed it.<br /><br />Speaking of forcing beliefs on people, sure, the RCC did it at one time. So did the Romans, Protestants, atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, and probably many others I don't even know about. And?Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-85593974434708661052011-10-03T09:22:04.883-04:002011-10-03T09:22:04.883-04:00Plotinus' work against gnosticism can be read ...Plotinus' <a href="http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Plotinus5.html" rel="nofollow">work against gnosticism can be read online</a>. Plotinus is not easy going -- and I'm told it's even worse in the Greek. Translators apparently tend to impose an order and coherence on his writings that isn't really there. <br /><br />Yet he is worth reading, even though it may not be possible to understand him: he is writing about things that are above and beyond the world we live in, and above and beyond the rules that govern the world. Still, you can see the sense of what he is saying here:<br /><br />"We assert [Soul's] creative act to be a proof not of decline but rather of its steadfast hold. Its decline could consist only in its forgetting the Divine: but if it forgot, how could it create? Whence does it create but from the things it knew in the Divine? If it creates from the memory of that vision, it never fell."<br /><br />Compare that with Tolkien's idea of art as sub-creation, and you begin to get the idea. Plotinus wasn't thinking of the same God as Tolkien, but there is something like the same idea at work.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-24268987250392150562011-10-03T09:01:07.010-04:002011-10-03T09:01:07.010-04:00But the analogy fails. The Gnostics weren't *i...But the analogy fails. The Gnostics weren't *intellectuals* as the term is used today, and did not as a group try to force their beliefs on the rest of their society by use of the machinery of the government. <br /><br />Unlike, say, the Catholic Church. (Which also btw, maintained that it knew better for everybody else.)Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02521739006999750126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-60503558502320276712011-10-02T22:24:18.931-04:002011-10-02T22:24:18.931-04:00Ah, maybe I'm confused. Why did you quote me a...Ah, maybe I'm confused. Why did you quote me and then write: "Whatever Gnosticsm was, it was not a 'political' movement..."?<br /><br />It seemed like a non sequitur since I wasn't suggesting Gnosticism was a political movement. I was drawing a parallel with today's elitists who fetishize intellectualism, dividing society into a supposedly enlightened elite (those who know and hence are superior) and the rest of us who are, in their minds, just dumb rubes (those who don't know and are therefore inferior).<br /><br />Sorry for any confusion.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-71057259349519156672011-10-02T21:43:14.234-04:002011-10-02T21:43:14.234-04:00Did you even read what I wrote?Did you even read what I wrote?Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02521739006999750126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-61948329917982511902011-10-02T21:34:04.418-04:002011-10-02T21:34:04.418-04:00Eric, there was also no 'political left' a...Eric, there was also no 'political left' at that time.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-26788350974303290382011-10-02T19:55:43.236-04:002011-10-02T19:55:43.236-04:00Of course, when I read that Gnostics were "pe...<i>Of course, when I read that Gnostics were "people who knew", and their knowledge at once constituted them a superior class of beings, whose present and future status was essentially different from that of those who, for whatever reason, did not know, I had to wonder how the political left got into this conversation.</i><br /><br /> Whatever Gnosticsm was, it was not a 'political' movement--since the Gnostics really didn't want anything to do with the material world. <br /><br />And as for what the Church recognizes, you have the Emperor Constantine to thank for that.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02521739006999750126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-91000187515566932252011-10-02T18:19:45.191-04:002011-10-02T18:19:45.191-04:00Actually, it showed up again, and the Ruling Class...<i>Actually, it showed up again, and the Ruling Class owns it.</i><br /><br />I was beaten to the punch!Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-60592258939475015202011-10-02T18:18:13.832-04:002011-10-02T18:18:13.832-04:00Given that I am not a theologian, nor do I play on...Given that I am not a theologian, nor do I play one on TV, I might be treading on thin ice here.<br /><br />But, as I understand both Protestant and Catholic Christianity, the material world was perfect at creation and it was only polluted by human sin. This is a problem with the Gnostic version of things.<br /><br />One significant ramification of this difference is that, until the 19th century anyway, it was widely believed that one could learn about God by studying the Book of Nature, God's other scripture. This inspired a number of men and women, such as Kepler and Newton, to look to nature and natural philosophy in an attempt to understand the mind of God, something a Gnostic would never consider, as I understand Gnosticism.<br /><br />Another issue is the difference on the humanity of Jesus; to Gnostics, he only <i>seemed</i> human but was in fact pure spirit, whereas to the Christian he was both human and divine.<br /><br />Of course, when I read that <i>Gnostics were "people who knew", and their knowledge at once constituted them a superior class of beings, whose present and future status was essentially different from that of those who, for whatever reason, did not know</i>, I had to wonder how the political left got into this conversation.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-3364396692141334752011-10-02T18:07:29.207-04:002011-10-02T18:07:29.207-04:00The Catholic church does not recognize the 'go...The Catholic church does not recognize the 'gospel of Phillip' as a book of the Bible.<br /><br />Scholars may say what they wish.Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-18454751524873793202011-10-02T18:06:31.621-04:002011-10-02T18:06:31.621-04:00a suppressed heresy
Actually, it showed up again,...<i>a suppressed heresy</i><br /><br />Actually, it showed up again, and the Ruling Class owns it.Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.com