tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post3260560567499232325..comments2024-03-28T00:01:43.037-04:00Comments on Grim's Hall: The Celtic Underbelly of the English TongueGrimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-81646328960216754472015-11-19T18:31:43.916-05:002015-11-19T18:31:43.916-05:00No wonder people find English to be difficult to l...No wonder people find English to be difficult to learn.<br /><br />It's not even a single language. Then again, the Celts somehow made it to Anatolia, the "Galatia". The vikings of their era, before the vikings got boats.Ymar Sakarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-22989599189277937702015-11-18T17:39:06.078-05:002015-11-18T17:39:06.078-05:00McWhorter's books go into the evidence in more...McWhorter's books go into the evidence in more detail. He's convinced that it's an unusual form, impossible to account for in English's dominant roots of French and the Germanic branch of Old English. I don't know that the Celtic origin is a well-accepted theory, though it does seem odd that the strange construction is pretty much limited to English and the old Celtic languages. It's certainly McWhorter's pet theory. Of course it could also be just an odd structure we dreamed up for English, like French's habit of saying "Is it that he goes to the store?"--which is not found in other European languages to my knowledge.Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-12519650025316858912015-11-18T17:34:39.606-05:002015-11-18T17:34:39.606-05:00Yes, it's as if there was a long-term struggle...Yes, it's as if there was a long-term struggle between the two forms, and "did/do" won out in the end. But as recently as the end of the 16th century, the old Germanic form was still holding its own. Over the next few centuries, it was relegated more and more to stilted or poetic usage. Today, the old form seems distinctly quaint.Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-23982352178396464242015-11-18T15:56:36.846-05:002015-11-18T15:56:36.846-05:00Now you two have me interested in the question. I...Now you two have me interested in the question. I dug out my Chaucer and other Middle English poets. The form does exist, but it's a lot less common. Questions are usually formed with the regular verb, as in the French: "Fares it so?"<br /><br />However, I do see the form in places. It's sometimes given in anachronistic variations: doth, dooth, dost, doeth. But, from the anonymous <i>Richard Couer de Lion</i>:<br /><br />"Earls and barons came, I ween,<br />To her lord she hastes, the queen,<br />Asked of him what did him ail?"<br /><br />We probably wouldn't phrase it "What does you ail?" but rather "What do you think made you sick?" But it's recognizably the "Do you walk?" form, well before Shakespeare. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-1305193350727595722015-11-18T15:17:16.424-05:002015-11-18T15:17:16.424-05:00Anything is possible I guess. I didn't find t...Anything is possible I guess. I didn't find the evidence presented in the article sufficient to support the argument. Additionally, I think he grossly underestimates the numbers involved in the Anglo-Saxon invasion/settlement of England.Joel Leggetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16588696436907032078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-56609162450579107852015-11-18T14:44:15.531-05:002015-11-18T14:44:15.531-05:00A quick glance through the KJV finds lots of uses ...A quick glance through the KJV finds lots of uses of the "do..." forms he's talking about.Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-13515148666517309802015-11-18T14:40:28.002-05:002015-11-18T14:40:28.002-05:00Well, he gives the other modern languages that use...Well, he gives the other modern languages that use it as Irish Gaelic, Breton, and Welsh. Two of those are descended from Old Brythonic, and Irish Gaelic is also a Celtic language.<br /><br />Alternatively the source uniting those regions should be the Normans, since they came from the north of France and conquered both Wales and Ireland in addition to England. But it isn't a French usage (which makes its survival in a majority francophone region like French Brittany surprising). <br /><br />It could be that the English adoption has nothing to do with the older Celtic use, but it seems more likely that it's a folk usage that dropped out of educated use for a long time because educated Anglophones looked to French and Latin for their cues of respectability. Once that finally stopped after the English Reformation (and contemporary loss of the last of their French possessions), there'd be no more reason to look to French or Latin usages as the standard of what was respectable. Just as there was sudden acceptance of translating the Bible into English at that time, and for those reasons, English may have been elevated in other ways too. Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-51737637149209287622015-11-18T13:24:53.951-05:002015-11-18T13:24:53.951-05:00Or maybe it has nothing to do with the Celts and i...Or maybe it has nothing to do with the Celts and it simply reflects an evolution of our language.Joel Leggetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16588696436907032078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-5807774148280967612015-11-18T11:58:39.705-05:002015-11-18T11:58:39.705-05:00That's an interesting observation too. It wou...That's an interesting observation too. It would sound as if we recovered something that was latent in the language. Maybe it was a usage that continued in common verbal, but not in formal written English? Grimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543082562999855432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-30656514435110119582015-11-18T10:41:51.965-05:002015-11-18T10:41:51.965-05:00PS, and it wasn't even that long ago that we s...PS, and it wasn't even that long ago that we started using "do" this way. In Shakespeare, we wouldn't be surprised to see "Walk you often along this path?" instead of "Do you often walk here?" Or think of folk songs: "Cam ye o'er frae France . . . saw ye Geordie Wilkes. . . ."Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5173950.post-64116738756579590062015-11-18T10:39:48.410-05:002015-11-18T10:39:48.410-05:00Ha, I thought that might be McWhorter. This is on...Ha, I thought that might be McWhorter. This is one of his favorite themes. I really enjoy his books.Texan99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10479561573903660086noreply@blogger.com