On one hand, I can see what he's saying. Read charitably, this is basically '..let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:15-16).
Still, referencing some forced conversion story from the Crusades as an example of 'proselytism'? I guess I've missed all the reports of Christian people terrorizing non-believers that Pope Francis must be getting.
It is disheartening to hear him preaching from the Book of St. Dalton, First Church Universal ("Be Nice").
Rest easy, Lars. Catholics simply ignore the guy, as we have ignored a number of Bishops and Cardinals who were......ahh.....in error.....over the centuries. The Church prevails despite all those turkeys.
It's the difference between commanding by moral authority and commanding by force. I'd love to see people pay more attention to the difference, without simply giving up on moral authority.
It's also the difference between applying a little humility to one's own beliefs or situation, versus deciding that all beliefs are equal in value. We'd probably do well to reflect that we can't know what God's plans are for people outside our time or culture or influence, without then concluding that it doesn't matter at all whether or how we try to communicate with the people whom He places right in front of us.
His word choice (assuming it actually is _his_ word choice and not a translator with an agenda) is infelicitous enough to make a charitable reading a bit difficult.
OTOH, there's always Cardinal Consalvi's reply to Napoleon. And for perspective, Matthew Paris' chronicles are worth reading.
Pope Francis has said this before and the argument is that he is using the word "proselytize" in a specific, negative sense, a sense which is different from "evangelize":
I try to be careful when criticizing the Pope, since after all he is a lifelong priest as well as the Bishop of Rome and the head of an ancient tradition. That said, I find it hard to square his assertion that those who proselytize (even granting his technical sense) are not “disciples of Jesus” with the scriptural acts of the Apostles. Apart from scripture, for that matter, I find it hard to square with his headship of a Church that has canonized many saints for doing exactly the things he says are horrible and unChristian.
If someone says they are a disciple of Jesus and comes to you with proselytism, they are not a disciple of Jesus.
From what I can tell, he says this because his usage of “proselytism” means:
... the promotion of a religion by using means, and for motives, contrary to the spirit of the Gospel...
So, for example, threatening someone with death unless they convert - hence, Francis' story from the Crusades. From something else I read, it sounds like withholding charity - food, clothing, medical care - unless the person in need converts would also qualify as a means contrary to the spirit of the Gospel in Francis' view (and in mine, for what it's worth).
Francis apparently supports evangelization. See, for example:
The article linked in the original post says that “Pope Francis responded to a question about how to deal with atheists and people of other faiths…” In fact, the Pope is answering 2 different questions that appear to have been asked at the same time. Although the article reports the Pope's answers as one continuous response, the two questions and the two answers appear to have nothing to do with each other.
The first question (from Francesco T) is:
Hello Holy Father, I wanted to ask you, when you were teaching, what looks, what do you hold, what thoughts did you have about people of other religious beliefs, too?
The answer to the first question ends with: Nothing to leave them aside because they have another faith ...
The second question (from Damiano) is:
Good morning, Your Holiness, I wanted to ask you a question. If an atheist came to you and asked you for a fundamental reason to start believing what would you say to him?
One of Pope Francis great problems is that he fails to see the need to be exceedingly careful in what he says as Pope. People are not going to see the difference between proselytize and evangelize even if he defines them in a particular way. Common usage sees them as synonyms. This failure is a danger in itself.
12 comments:
The man's gone full heretic. Catholics need to do something about this.
On one hand, I can see what he's saying. Read charitably, this is basically '..let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:15-16).
Still, referencing some forced conversion story from the Crusades as an example of 'proselytism'? I guess I've missed all the reports of Christian people terrorizing non-believers that Pope Francis must be getting.
It is disheartening to hear him preaching from the Book of St. Dalton, First Church Universal ("Be Nice").
Catholics need to do something about this.
Rest easy, Lars. Catholics simply ignore the guy, as we have ignored a number of Bishops and Cardinals who were......ahh.....in error.....over the centuries. The Church prevails despite all those turkeys.
It's the difference between commanding by moral authority and commanding by force. I'd love to see people pay more attention to the difference, without simply giving up on moral authority.
It's also the difference between applying a little humility to one's own beliefs or situation, versus deciding that all beliefs are equal in value. We'd probably do well to reflect that we can't know what God's plans are for people outside our time or culture or influence, without then concluding that it doesn't matter at all whether or how we try to communicate with the people whom He places right in front of us.
His word choice (assuming it actually is _his_ word choice and not a translator with an agenda) is infelicitous enough to make a charitable reading a bit difficult.
OTOH, there's always Cardinal Consalvi's reply to Napoleon. And for perspective, Matthew Paris' chronicles are worth reading.
Is there a project afoot to potty-train bears?
Pope Francis has said this before and the argument is that he is using the word "proselytize" in a specific, negative sense, a sense which is different from "evangelize":
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/pope-francis-on-proselytism
Hence Francis's Crusade story and his quoting Pope Benedict as saying that "the church ... grows by attraction, by testimony." (emphasis mine)
While poking around, I skimmed through Part Three of Pope Benedict's Verbum Domini:
http://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini.html
Even in a document about the word, Benedict is careful to emphasize the need for witness. This is consistent with Francis saying:
I have to live consistent with my faith. And it will be my testimony to awaken the curiosity of the other...
I try to be careful when criticizing the Pope, since after all he is a lifelong priest as well as the Bishop of Rome and the head of an ancient tradition. That said, I find it hard to square his assertion that those who proselytize (even granting his technical sense) are not “disciples of Jesus” with the scriptural acts of the Apostles. Apart from scripture, for that matter, I find it hard to square with his headship of a Church that has canonized many saints for doing exactly the things he says are horrible and unChristian.
Francis says:
If someone says they are a disciple of Jesus and comes to you with proselytism, they are not a disciple of Jesus.
From what I can tell, he says this because his usage of “proselytism” means:
... the promotion of a religion by using means, and for motives, contrary to the spirit of the Gospel...
So, for example, threatening someone with death unless they convert - hence, Francis' story from the Crusades. From something else I read, it sounds like withholding charity - food, clothing, medical care - unless the person in need converts would also qualify as a means contrary to the spirit of the Gospel in Francis' view (and in mine, for what it's worth).
Francis apparently supports evangelization. See, for example:
http://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2013/june/documents/papa-francesco_20130613_xiii-consiglio-sinodo-vescovi.html
Fair enough.
And here's the original report of the discussion with the students:
http://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/speeches/2019/december/documents/papa-francesco_20191220_visita-liceo-albertelli.html
The article linked in the original post says that “Pope Francis responded to a question about how to deal with atheists and people of other faiths…” In fact, the Pope is answering 2 different questions that appear to have been asked at the same time. Although the article reports the Pope's answers as one continuous response, the two questions and the two answers appear to have nothing to do with each other.
The first question (from Francesco T) is:
Hello Holy Father, I wanted to ask you, when you were teaching, what looks, what do you hold, what thoughts did you have about people of other religious beliefs, too?
The answer to the first question ends with: Nothing to leave them aside because they have another faith ...
The second question (from Damiano) is:
Good morning, Your Holiness, I wanted to ask you a question. If an atheist came to you and asked you for a fundamental reason to start believing what would you say to him?
It's been my experience that few Christian charities demand conversion before supplying aid, or even restrict aid to Christians.
His promotion of authoritarian schemes to combat so-called climate change makes me think he's straining gnats and swallowing camels.
One of Pope Francis great problems is that he fails to see the need to be exceedingly careful in what he says as Pope. People are not going to see the difference between proselytize and evangelize even if he defines them in a particular way. Common usage sees them as synonyms. This failure is a danger in itself.
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