Too Much Individualism

I don't think Milbank understands the TEA Party very well, and in fact I think his proposal here is not very likely to work. Nevertheless, I am surprised to see that we seem to agree about the problem with American culture, even if we disagree about the solutions:
Liu observes that American culture now has an excess of individualism, short-term thinking and prioritizing of rights over duties. He calls for “a corrective dose” of Chinese values: mutual responsibility, long-term thinking, humility, moral character and contribution to society.
Now, I was just praising Jackie Chan on exactly this ground, so it may seem that we have some agreement about the solution set as well. Certainly Chinese culture currently has a stronger sense of the family as an institution that is (and ought to be) binding on its members: America has largely disposed of every binding institution except the State, following the logic of the Enlightenment philosophers from Hume and Locke to JS Mill -- to say nothing of Marx and those under his influence. We have come to see the world in terms of atomic individuals and their governments, so much so that the Democratic party now speaks of government as 'the thing we all belong to,' or 'the word for what we do together.'

Still, there are two things to say about this:

1) Chinese culture is not the answer. For one thing, as Milbank's article itself points out, Chinese culture isn't a hedge here -- it's breaking down on the same lines as we speak. For another, the authoritarian response that Milbank describes is very much at the core of Chinese cultural ideals. The boss in China is a very different figure than an American boss, as the fourth of these graphics relates.

Part of the reason is that Chinese culture is incompatible with direct confrontation between individuals, which is very much necessary to the American form of government. In order for a republican form of government to work, people have to speak the truth as they see it, and hash out their differences in conflict. A society that believes that politeness is built around not making others uncomfortable may be noble on its own terms, but it requires the authoritarian mode of government that Chinese culture produces not only in government itself, but in the family, and in the business world. Someone has to be empowered to make a decision binding on everyone else just because you can't have direct confrontations that would allow you to hash things out. If you don't like a proposal you can signal it by saying things like, "Maybe we could do that," rather than, "Yes, let's do that!" But you can't have the kind of frank exchange of views that is necessary for the traditional American city council that would allow you to come to a compromise position. You need someone to make the call, and you need a culture of submission to that call when it is made.

2) We have an American solution that is fully formed. It's just been abandoned. But America used to have stronger families, we used to have more of a sense of duty and community, we used to celebrate faith and religion.

Why did it fall apart? Industrial economics. The move from extended families to nuclear ones follows from the need of an industrial economy for mobile workers, which shatters the old model of families because it requires the children to move in different directions. The sort of small Protestant churches that were historically so prominent in America break up for the same reason. Only larger churches that one can belong to without being tied to a particular place can hold generations of people together if the families are going to break up and move in different directions every few years. The same holds for private clubs and other small cultural organizations.

An information economy makes larger families possible again, and stable churches and other community organizations, insofar as you do not need to move to be physically present at a given office, but such an economy isn't fully realized even here in America.

For the moment the philosophy of individualism is triumphant, in other words, in part because the forces that would resist it have been broken by the economy on which we all rely for survival. As we transition to a new way of producing, the old institutions may recover -- and if they do, they will be better positioned to reassert the more traditional modes of American thought on things like family and church.

In the meantime, individualism is so convincing to so many because it is the only way of thinking that seems to match the physical reality they encounter. It isn't obvious to them that this reality is a human construction, in part because the structure of the economy is beyond human control. It is wholly our production, but it is the force of so many of us acting at once that no group -- even a nation -- can really alter the basic facts about it to any substantial degree. Efforts at control fail to produce the intended results.

Now Milbank intends, when he talks about Americans thinking of themselves as belonging to a community, something like these 'efforts at control.' He thinks of the TEA Party as a kind of revanchist movement because he doesn't understand their economic points, which aren't about individualism per se but about eliminating government meddling with the economy (such as taxation, regulation and mandates) in order to allow the economy to flourish. This same economy has been destroying families and communities, but the only hope to recover lies in moving forward, not in trying to build dams. That's what they're arguing -- not that they should not be thought of as members of communities. Of course they don't think that. If they did, there wouldn't be such a profusion of community-oriented symbolism at TEA Party functions: religious communities, families, and of course the basic symbolism of belonging to an American political community that is captured in the tricorner hats and copies of the Constitution.

The solution, then, isn't to import other cultures to improve ours. The solution can only be to move forward with developing an information economy, while mindful of the need to build and sustain communities and families and churches. The solution is to push down power to localities when possible, states when not, and to diminish the role of the Federal government -- in that way, you'll get people working together to solve problems because the government will be operating at a scale they can actually affect with their efforts.

The introduction of "whiteness" is a red herring. The problem is not ethnic, and the solution is not either.

38 comments:

Cass said...

Heh - great minds :)

Haven't read your post yet but was amused b/c I am writing about this too!

Ymar Sakar said...

"Someone has to be empowered to make a decision binding on everyone else just because you can't have direct confrontations that would allow you to hash things out."

How's that different from Zero Policy Bully shops and profiteers in schools where the Boss decides who is guilty (everyone is) instead of allowing individuals to settle individual disputes with individual power?

A lot of people think individual means slave, but a slave and a free or independent individual is not the same creature.

It's just been abandoned.

Sabotaged, not quite abandoned.

The move from extended families to nuclear ones follows from the need of an industrial economy for mobile workers, which shatters the old model of families because it requires the children to move in different directions.

Yet Asian families make that line of thought invalid.

People talk about individuals here, yet they keep thinking Ferguson is full of individuals and the police are making decisions on an individual level. These aren't individual levels and judgments. Schools aren't made by individual judgments and their policies are not. If the President tells people to bring up healthcare at Thanksgiving, obedience to that is not an individual judgment. Democrats voting for Democrats is not an individual judgment. It's a community loyalty test.

And yet people think the problem is with individualism in America? They cannot see what they don't want to see.

Grim said...

Yet Asian families make that line of thought invalid.

America was well suited to it, in a way, because to come here you had to be descended from (or to be yourself) the kind of person who would leave everything and move away forever.

The Irish used to throw parties for those leaving called "your American wake." The idea was that they'd celebrate your life and death now, since neither you nor news of you were likely to come back again.

MikeD said...

When folks talk about "too much individualism" or "too much freedom", it's a good indication that they're tired of people not doing what THEY want, and they wish everyone would just do as their told. We call these people "tyrants". And frankly, I have no patience for such fools.

Texan99 said...

Industrial economics wasn't the first system to induce people to move around rather than starve in place. Thriving economies and cultures all over the world are full of people who pulled up stakes whenever they had to.

I think you may be in danger of putting the cart before the horse: surely it's a kind of individualism, as opposed to family-oriented sacrifice, that makes people willing to say "I should be able to sit right here and wait for the jobs (or the dole checks) to come to me." It's just not the good kind of individualism, which expects motivation to come from within.

Grim said...

There's a big difference between "too much individualism" (which I tend to think is true about our current situation) and "too much freedom" (which I tend to think is false). Individualism is an essentially false way of thinking about human beings, who can possibly exist only as members of communities. A society that structures its laws according to this false view of human beings is going to cause itself problems, and not just with 'long term thinking.'

On the other hand, people certainly do things that I wish they wouldn't do -- like the millions of abortions we have in America, aimed at protecting 'the individual' (as if there were only one) and not at the duties owed to the family (such as, for example, the child you ought not to kill, and to whom you in fact owe substantial duties).

I don't want to be in a position to force them to do as they're told, but I surely do wish they'd find it in their hearts to do something better.

Grim said...

Tex,

Thriving economies and cultures all over the world are full of people who pulled up stakes whenever they had to.

Nomads do this, but they move as units. (Nor are they, really, thriving in our sense of the term -- unless you mean nomads like the Golden Horde! But their thriving was at the expense of others.)

Nevertheless, I agree that there is 'a kind of individualism' at the root of the welfare mentality. But my point is that there is too much individualism! It's no problem for me to admit that individualism causes problems.

In any case, if there is no alternative then there is no alternative. If people have to move physically to survive, then communities are going to get broken up, families are going to get pulled apart, clubs won't survive, churches will fragment -- but there's nothing to be done about that. We have to feed people first, and for a while the way in which we've fed people is this way.

Globalization has a piece of this, too. The industrial economy in America used to support enough jobs that you didn't always have to move to find them. You could have a local Lion's Club or whatever, because people would stick around town even if they moved from one factory to another. But as jobs have sped, especially to places like China, even that level of stability is gone.

If we are able to move to a new kind of economic order, new kinds of social orders (or even old ones) become sustainable.

The same is true if the current model collapses, forcing us back on the old system. It's worth noticing that the rise of extended family households in America is associated with long-term unemployment.

Between these choices, we should certainly prefer the new economy to a collapse of the old economy. And that's the way to aim. In the meantime, the best we can do is to try to be mindful about building and sustaining such communities as we can.

Texan99 said...

Nomads? Good grief. I'm referring to my own family. Of course the habit is not limited to the Scotch-Irish: it describe the forbears of large swaths of the American landscape. I have many neighbors here who are Vietnamese boat people.

james said...

I worry about that "information economy." That demands intellectual horsepower not born with the lower half of the bell curve, and maybe even with some of those above it. Yet people don't flourish unless they can find a way to serve each other.

I'm not fool enough to think that top-down mandates will provide ways for that to happen. I puzzled a bit about it at excessive length: what can your neighbors or your church to do employ people or help foster non-independent living?

Grim said...

Nomads? Good grief. I'm referring to my own family.

Then I am not sure what point you mean to make. Your family is part of an industrial economy.

Grim said...

I worry about that "information economy." That demands intellectual horsepower not born with the lower half of the bell curve, and maybe even with some of those above it.

This is a worry I share. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I don't doubt the problem. Joseph W. keeps telling me that it's a non-issue because we've found a way to solve the problem in the past, since the Luddite movement, but that sounds like a fallacy of induction to me.

Ymar Sakar said...

Most of the issue with the for profit abortion movement is the profit, not the individual wills involved. People do things for society or because of society, not because of their own individual wills since it just so happens that individuals who do things on their own are rare.

A society cannot include these individual outliers in to the stability matrix because society by definition cannot be about leaving people alone. A society dissolves when there is no group of 2 or more around operating. Because there's no such thing as society, only individuals in a network working together.

A society's rules only apply to the vast majority that wish to obey or obtain security via group power and resources. If an individual cannot or refuses to comply with society's demands, they were generally exiled, killed, or re-educated. And in certain circumstances, tribes of nomads and warrior nations and armies, failed to kill ONE person that was exiled. They couldn't kill em, but would be killed by them. Society cannot deal with those kinds of people and society cannot write its rules to cater to such people, because that's not the majority. It's an abnormal statistic.

Without the profit motivation behind Planned Parenthood, without the political control benefits, without the demographic benefits of eugenics, abortion wouldn't be an issue. It cannot be completely eradicated, but it can separate the people who are doing it because they have a reason to do it vs the people who do it only because society demands it of them. The eugenics of society demanded, in the form of Sanger, Purity of the Race, which means elimination of undesirables and genetic defects. The wealth masters of society demand money from organizations for abortion and that's what they got. Power was exchanged in the form of the political control over the minds and bodies of the subjects too.

Americans only think it's about individuals vis a vis abortion because that's what the Left likes to talk about. And talk about. But it's not what it is about.

America was well suited to it, in a way, because to come here you had to be descended from (or to be yourself) the kind of person who would leave everything and move away forever.

The cultural dynamic and the bloodlines were further weeded out by the Oregon Trail and various Wild West incidents. That's why I say America used to be full of individuals. Now all we got are Obamacans that obey Authority, because that's all they ever know and all they ever will know. But the Left calls Democrats and their faithful allies "individuals", as a veil of illusion. They don't act like individuals. The issue is then not with the individual's lack of money or opportunity attributes, but with the System itself or the oligarchy at the Top.

Information economy in the form of shops appearing on Ebay, servicing not a town or nation but an entire world of nations, is good. However, they are directly competing with MPAA and various other national based corporations and governments. Until the war between them is settled, there's no guaranteed benefit that will stay the hand of society from grasping the outlaws or exiles.

Texan99 said...

"Then I am not sure what point you mean to make. Your family is part of an industrial economy."

Yes, lucky for them, and for me. My point was that it was a feature, not a bug. Neither liberty nor any other essential human happiness depends on the world making it possible for them or for me to stay put no matter what, but a great deal depends on our being free to move if that's what is called for. It turned out that, in moving, they were quite able to establish better institutions of liberty than they left behind.

In other words, I can't see the industrial economy as an impediment to the American institutions that fostered liberty. Families, faith, duty, community, and religion are all compatible with a free economy; they have all, in the past, easily thrived in the context of geographic uprootings, whether caused by economic pressures or anything else.

I would argue the flipside as well: we are not likely to re-invigorate family, faith, duty, community, or religion by hogtying the free market.

Grim said...

That we should not hogtie the free market is a point of agreement, chiefly in my case because I don't believe we can do it well. I would be glad to do it if it would work to encourage a greater human flourishing, but since it will not, it is unwise and counterproductive.

But there is an important kind of flourishing that comes from being in a place, in a community, knowing the people around you and sharing values with them. If there were not, you would leave the little island you like so well and go to the oil fields. Even as a lawyer, you'd make better money there. But you wouldn't be as happy; and perhaps you wouldn't find a church as well-suited to yourself, and you'd miss the friends you left behind, and if you made new ones you'd only have to leave them behind too.

There's a reason "home" is such a resonant word in the English language.

Ymar Sakar said...

You should watch some Japanese entertainment products, Grim, they have lots of stuff designed to support the concept of a home where people can be accepted or understood, as a basis for future success as an adult.

Given that American culture has been sabotaged and wrecked, with an engineered demolition or 3, people lack the terminology to understand several key concepts that used to be understood via human contact, but can no longer be understood as a concept because it has been destroyed as a valid concept.

Texan99 said...

If I needed or wanted to make better money, that's exactly what I would do--what I have done always, and what my family always did. I worked all over the continent in my youth, and not because I liked it. The charm of airports and hotels wore off long ago. Nobody has ever owed me a living wherever I happened to be.

Nor was my life noticeably disrupted when we moved here 8 years ago. I maintain ties with friends to whom I no longer live near; if I moved again, I'd do it again. I had a church in Houston that suited me fine; in another community I'd find another. It's not geographical stability that makes me form these ties wherever I am, it's belief in the value of the ties.

Do I prefer to stay put? Yes, I'm a homebody, I don't enjoy travel, and I like it here. But I bought the right to stay put, as a luxury, and it was a robust free economy that gave me the opportunity to do so.

J Melcher said...

Perhaps there is an over-emphasis on individualism. If so there is also an under-emphasis on citizen-ism. An individual who can read,count, and solve minor puzzles of logic, is encouraged to become familiar with the basics of the written law and the legal interpretive process, then becomes useful in voting, serving on juries, bulking up the militia, arranging mutual profit in the marketplace, passing on civilization to a new generation... An individual who can NOT read, count, or process information logically, and nevertheless insists on being treated the same way as citizens who can and do, creates a problem for both individual citizens and the society or community of citizens.

Grim said...

But I bought the right to stay put, as a luxury, and it was a robust free economy that gave me the opportunity to do so.

Another way to put that is that it's a luxury because the economy has structured our lives in such a way that we can't stay put unless we are rich enough.

Insofar as human beings would prefer a home, that's a problem. It's a problem with the economy. A 'robust free economy' is hurting a lot of people, even if it lets a few of its most successful have the wealth to buy 'luxuries.'

Grim said...

Perhaps there is an over-emphasis on individualism. If so there is also an under-emphasis on citizen-ism.

Very good.

Texan99 said...

I can't eat unless I'm rich enough. I can't have shelter from the cold and the rain unless I'm rich enough. Nor has any human being ever been able to have these things, unless he was rich enough. That's not a function of an economy, it's what happens when you leave the womb.

Luckily, a free-enterprise system has enabled billions of people worldwide to have a decent shot at these things, on a greater scale than ever before achieved in human history.

Grim said...

Nor has any human being ever been able to have these things, unless he was rich enough. That's not a function of an economy, it's what happens when you leave the womb.

No, you're wrong. It's exactly the function of an economy. That's what an economy is. It's the things we do to answer these needs.

One of the needs we want an economy for is a home. This kind of economy is worse at providing one than previous sorts, although it provides greater wealth. That's interesting.

You're too busy defending the current system to think about its defects. It won't last forever. We should already be thinking about what we can do to help the next system, the one after our kind of industrial capitalism, answer human needs better than what we have now.

Eric Blair said...

Hold on there, Grim. When are you talking about? the 18th century? 19th century? the 20th century?

Industrial economics had nothing to do with the 'decline' of strong families. In fact, its possible that the decline of industrial jobs contributed to the decline of families, as the various attempts to deal with a bad economic conditions from the 1930's forward, and the whole 'great society' mind set from the mid 1960's forward have done more than anything to change the pattern of family life in the USA. And WWI and WWII. Especially WWII.

Texan99 said...

You think the function of the economy is to provide us things? I think that's barking mad.

People earn things for themselves, and provide them to their dependents. The economy is a way they work out how to trade things of value after they've been produced. It doesn't produce things; we do.

Dad29 said...

Umnnhhh...well....

One can also argue that the decline of 'intermediary institutions' such as the family and church co-incides with the growth of Gummint.

Yes, there are other factors such as the mobility-requirement for sustenance in this economy.

But to me it's clear that the size and influence of ALL Gummints--local, state, and Fed--is the primary driver behind the abrogation of intermediaries.

I'd also argue that the Fed influence is so great (principally through its purse-powers) that States and Locals have to a great degree become branch offices of the Fed--as have the schools.

Grim said...

I think the only reason we engage in the economy is to obtain things. Since the economy is nothing other than our engagement in it -- it does not exist without human choices to engage in it -- its end is our end. So yes, the purpose of the economy is to sustain us. That's why any of us engage in economic activity; it's why there is an economy at all.

Hold on there, Grim. When are you talking about? the 18th century? 19th century? the 20th century?

Good. That's a much better objection.

But perhaps you can see that I'm talking about all of it, though it is not fully actual in all times at all places. The 'American Wake' was an artifact of the 1840s, when an agricultural famine was balanced against an industrial boom -- if you were willing to move. There were periods when industry provided stability, as we've discussed; but globalization washed that away.

Ultimately, industry is indifferent to place in a way that agriculture is not. If you're going to make a living in industry or its derivatives, you have to move to where it's booming. If you're going to make a living in agriculture, you have to move to where the climate is suitable. Then, you need to find a way to stay there.

Place matters to people. That's the point.

Matt said...

Grim, would I be correct in understanding your core argument as, "the modern American economy, overall, tends to disperse and dismantle communities by moving people around faster than they can re-establish themselves in new communities?"

Ymar Sakar said...

I don't think the ranchers in Nevada Reid drove out moved because of the economy being free or radical. That wasn't really the issue at hand.

Grim said...

Matt,

Except for the "American" part. One way of resisting this tendency was protectionism: high tariffs allowed communities to survive in places like South Carolina, where garment factories provided reliable work for decades. Now those communities have had to disperse, because the economy is treated as a kind of global force rather than a thing that Americans do for American reasons (and which should be ordered to serve American purposes).

China was closed off from all that for a long time because of Maoism. No doubt it has benefited greatly, in many ways, from opening up and permitting economic development and capitalism. But there are (and increasingly will be) costs, especially in these very areas Milbank is talking about. China's families and communities are not going to survive in their current, strong form: indeed, they're already breaking apart.

MikeD said...

Wow, I missed quite a bit here.


1) Individualism. Apparently it is being used in a manner I am unfamiliar with. To me, individualism is being self-reliant. Not waiting for someone else to swoop in and save you from the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. I.e. "rugged individualism". But apparently, the definition being used in this conversation is somehow being taken as "anti-social" and yet at the same time "dependent upon government", which I frankly do not understand. So I'd like some clarity on this.

2) Economy. It's a fancy word for the general well being of the individual transactions we take in our day to day lives as an aggregate. When I buy a loaf of bread, I am contributing to the economy. The economy, I do not believe, exists for a purpose, but simply IS by virtue of the day to day trade we all engage in. Furthermore, I reject the concept that it should be the function of some abstract concept (i.e. the economy) to provide the necessities of life to anyone. That is the job of the individual, the family, and if necessary, the local community. Otherwise, it smacks of having a "right to food", a "right to shelter", or a "right to clothing".

I will always maintain that such things cannot and should never be considered "rights" because they demand the sacrifice of the life, liberty, and property of others. A farmer who is compelled to sacrifice part of his harvest to feed others is functionally a slave to them (for at least a period of time). He is being forced to labor for the benefit of others with no recompense. This is injustice. Now, mind you, if the farmer wishes to serve his community and voluntarily shares his harvest, then this is virtuous behavior, and should be encouraged. But compelled virtue is no virtue at all.

3) Migration of work caused by the modern age. If anything, the day is swiftly approaching where work CAN come to you. For many industries, technology now enables telecommuting, and in a manner that assists everyone. I live in an area where the cost of living is significantly less than most of the rest of the country. If an employer is willing to hire me from say, Silicon Valley, they can pay me less than they could ever pay a local, get the same labor at a lower price, and still provide me a better salary than I can achieve locally. That pumps more money into my local economy, I don't need to move to where the work is, thus maintaining the community that Grim is favoring. All thanks to modern technology.

Now, this does have the side effect of globalizing the economy where it used to be localized. But frankly, that's inevitable. Unless we all decide to go back to subsistence farming and production, then we will never get back the local blacksmith, the local farmer, the local teacher, etc. Certain goods cannot be produced solely by a local economy. Cars and computers are the most immediate example that come to mind. Materials are gathered from across the world, and brought to one location to be assembled into components which then are sent to another location to be assembled into a product. There is no person that has the skill, knowledge, infrastructure, and capability to build such a product on their own. It literally takes thousands of individuals to work towards that larger goal to achieve. And the best news is, that process enriches everyone along the way. From the miner who digs the copper from the earth, to the refiner who smelts the copper and turns it into wire, to the transportation workers who ship the material, to the component maker who converts it into a processor, all the way down to the computer store who sells the finished product. Many of those jobs simply wouldn't exist if we didn't have a globalized economy.

Grim said...

So, as for point 1, there is an ambiguity that needs clarification. "Individualism" in the sense I'm using it means "the philosophy of thinking of yourself as an individual primarily or exclusively." It's the attitude held by a person who thinks that they may morally divorce if they are unhappy, because their marriage vows cannot bind them in any serious way; but it is also the philosophy behind the laws that support no-fault divorce. The thought is that individuals are the only real thing, and that relationships are not real. You're only as married as you want to be.

This extends to other relations as well. People sometimes talk about bringing back the draft. Probably that's a terrible idea for a number of reasons, but imagine the outrage that would follow from asserting that you have a duty as a citizen to submit to having years of your life spent in service of your country. How dare the community make such a demand of you?

Well, it's a very ordinary sort of demand, really. It is rooted in the fact that you don't really exist as an individual, but can only exist as a member of a community. That community, which supports your existence, might reasonably ask you to help defend its existence as necessary.

And your family, without which you would not exit and could not exist, might also make some reasonable demands on you. A good person should not reject those reasonable demands just because they are infringing on your individual freedom. The relationship is important.

That's what is being criticized. "Rugged individualism," that sense that you can do things for yourself without the government, is not quite the same concept. Rugged individualism admits of things like family ties: there's no problem with thinking that the "individual family" can solve a problem without help, etc.

Grim said...

As for point 2, it's a standard Aristotelian argument. The end or goal of a thing -- telos -- is also the standard by which you judge it. The telos of housebuilding is a functional house. If you end up with a floor that isn't stable and a roof that leaks badly, you can judge that you did not do a good job of housebuilding.

So what's the telos of economic activity? Why do we do it? We do it because there are things we need, or things we want. Providing ourselves with goods is the end of the activity. Thus, that is the standard by which we can judge the economy.

And we do judge it this way. We say "this is a bad economy" if it is hard to find a job that pays well enough to provide us with what we need, let alone what we want. We say "this is a great economy" if jobs are plentiful and well-paying.

That doesn't imply, as you infer, that people have rights to any of this. It just means that we can judge the economy by how well it is achieving its telos. If one of the goods people desire is a home, but they are not able to get it because it is (as Tex calls it) "a luxury good" given the structure of the economy, that's something we can criticize along the same lines as saying that "it's a bad economy" if work is scarce and poorly-paid.

douglas said...

"So what's the telos of economic activity? Why do we do it? We do it because there are things we need, or things we want. Providing ourselves with goods is the end of the activity. Thus, that is the standard by which we can judge the economy."

I beg to differ, Grim. The telos of economic activity is to prosper- to exceed subsistence. I don't think subsistence living qualifies as any sort of economy. Let's also keep in mind that we've taken a word that originally refers to a kind of efficiency, and turned it into a noun. It doesn't have a base state- it's reliant on having a base state which it is making more efficient. Economy is luxury- we've gotten so far ahead of the subsistence game that we forget just how much of what we have is luxury.

What's odd now is that is so much harder to break off and subsist on your own efforts (in isolation) today, if you're living in a metropolitan area. Have we really been able to redefine what subsistence is? I don't think so.

So, I'd say that the purpose of an economy isn't to provide us things, but to provide us efficiency. It's a side effect that we then can have better, fancier things.

Also, it sounds like you're using the classical liberal sense of individualism- which is why it always ultimately leads to tyranny.

Conservatives value institutions, see the relationship between man and family, society, and for that matter, God, as essential and important, and make individuality a negative. What conservatives value is individual responsibility.

Dad29 said...

The telos of economic activity is to prosper- to exceed subsistence. I don't think subsistence living qualifies as any sort of economy.

Pish posh. Most of the Third World lives in subsistence. They are in "an economy."

You seek to re-define the term by prior qualification.

Ymar Sakar said...

It is rooted in the fact that you don't really exist as an individual, but can only exist as a member of a community.

You got that reversed. Communities can only exist because of individuals. In instances where a cult or North Korean nation only has one individual, the one at the top, there's going to be a lack of communities soon enough.

You might as well call the Ism philosophy Ayn Randism, that is what you are describing after all. And if it's not fair to attribute modern Leftist society's issues to her, then it's merely Leftism. That's how modern societies get so extreme a philosophy where they get the vices of collectivism and individual will, but none of the virtues of either.

Texan99 said...

We're always in "an economy" as long as each of us isn't 100% self-sufficient, eating only what he can hunt and pick off trees. But it would be a mistake to say that, since we're in an economy, the "economy" simply means "the things we consume," let alone "making sure everyone can consume what he likes." The word refers to a system of organizing our resources, our work, and our trade. (Technically, our scarce resources that can be put to alternative uses.) I think Douglas is exactly right: our economy is a plan for maximizing efficiency, through specialization and exchange--in our own case, via a free market that sets prices by supply and demand in voluntary transactions.

As soon as Og and Nog discovered that Og was good at hunting while Nog is good at chipping flints, and both were richer if they specialized and traded, they had the rudiments of an economy. But the "economy" can't substitute for Og getting out there and killing a deer, or for Nog patiently sharpening his spearpoints. Nor does the economy make Og and Nog able or willing to negotiate peacefully with each other if they'd rather fight or steal. Nor does it guarantee that there will enough deer in the woods, or that the right kind of flintstone can be found without relocating to a distant valley. Nor does it induce Og to share his food with his child or his sick neighbor. All the economy does is enable Og and Nog to produce more together than they would each have done alone, so that there's more to share according to whatever rules of sharing they come up with, which can run the gamut from miserly to Mother-Theresa levels of generosity. The economy won't produce immediate worldwide abundance, but it will increase abundance everywhere it is practiced.

No economic system this side of Paradise is ever going to guarantee that everyone has everything he'd like in the way of independence, privacy, leisure, stability, or material goods; there will always be trade-offs as long as resources and effort are finite. A good economic system, though, can so increase the efficient use of resources, and therefore abundance, that more and more of us will be able to avoid starvation while indulging our desires for other things, such as the wish to stay put and sink deep roots in an area for decades or generations at a time. In the past, when the wolf was at the door, many people had no opportunity to relocate and avoid starvation. These days, practically everyone can avoid starvation, and an increasing number can do so at some point in their lives without periodic relocation. My migrating ancestors, fleeing the potato famines, probably wished they had been so lucky!

Considering this dramatic improvement in human material well-being, which is entirely attributable to a free-market system that began only a few centuries ago, it seems odd to complain that the system is not yet successful enough to permit every citizen to choose an ideal location without regard to whether the local resources (and the economy that organizes their production and trade) are sufficient to sustain a household. It may not yet be that successful, but it's miles better than any other we've come up with in the last million years or so. All the plans for improving it that I've ever heard amount to returning to one of the old systems of price controls and market constraints, which have never led to anything but a crash in prosperity.

Texan99 said...

By the way, Y, I agree with you completely.

There's a sterile quality in the individualism-vs.-collectivism debate. I take the view that what matters are souls and love. A soul is irreducibly an individual, and love is something that can happen only between and among souls. But I don't give a fig for a system or an institution in and of itself, only for what it does to improve the life of one or more souls. The more the better, but each improvement is important because it is an improvement for a specific individual with an immortal soul all his own, and cherished by God for himself.

Ymar Sakar said...

For some elaboration. By Ayn Randism I refer to specifically this line of Grim's description.

"Individualism" in the sense I'm using it means "the philosophy of thinking of yourself as an individual primarily or exclusively." It's the attitude held by a person who thinks that they may morally divorce if they are unhappy, because their marriage vows cannot bind them in any serious way; but it is also the philosophy behind the laws that support no-fault divorce. The thought is that individuals are the only real thing, and that relationships are not real. You're only as married as you want to be.

Since Ayn Rand had an affair with another philosopher in her circle (Alan Greenspan was in that same circle, in another role).

Ayn Rand herself took individualism to the greatest and highest isolated level of the egoism and the ego. Although I think she was looking in the wrong place.

But it's doubtful Rand herself could influence modern society to such a degree that we are seeing the modern consequences of marriage, divorce, abortion, etc. So if Grim is worried about modern affairs, it's then either Leftism or Ayn Randism her personal philosophy not the philosophy of her books.

Many people in the olden days married either because society demanded that they must do so or found a personal desire to marry an individual.

That's the same thing in modern affairs, it's not an individual level judgment that suddenly cropped up that say F U to society. Women in America do whatever they do, because the Left's society demands it of them, or else. Some choose differently and they suffer the consequences, much as maidens suffered the consequences of refusing to marry when they are past 26 years of age.

This is the exact same social construct and power application, except it's reversed and sold in the form of individual freedom. It's not individual freedom.

Texan, I don't like society. I treat it as a necessary bomb waiting to blow up. Society can and will go to hell. In some fashions, it should too.

douglas said...

Dad29, I'm not redefining by prior qualification- it's the nature of the word itself:

6. the efficient, sparing, or concise use of something:
an economy of effort; an economy of movement.


Now, this is definition 6, because we've come to use the word more in the sense of 'the economy' as in the economic system we use as a society, but the roots of the word are in the Greek oikonomíā 'Household management'. In the definition, it's the effcient use of something- and so it's established as a given that there must be something pre-existing to be economical with. IN the case of economies, it's your labors, your creation of resources to meet your needs (and perhaps more). We use the term to refer to that societal structure because it works through the principles of economy of scale and specialization (as Tex so eloquently laid out for us- thanks Tex!).

I will grant that I may have pushed the edge of my argument with the line " I don't think subsistence living qualifies as any sort of economy", though. A group of people specializing to subsist a little better or easier than without that specialization are in some sort of economy, but it still requires the basis of their labor as capital for the system to economize. No capital, no economy.